D&D 5E Am I missing something about Conjure Animal

AdmundfortGeographer · Apr 17, 2017

I've been out of RPGs since the end of 3.5, occasionally dipped into try 4e and put it down. My son turned 16 so I felt now was a good time to introduce him to RPGs. I decided we'd all learn 5e together.

I'm DMing, our player's party is a half-elf cleric, dragonborn barbarian, dwarf fighter, and tiefling druid. We're playing Princes of the Apocalypse, everyone is loving it and excited for every session. So far, this has been screaming success introducing a new generation of kids to table top RPGs.

Except with the party reaching 5th level now, our druid found conjure animal for her 3rd level spell. And it's ruining a lot of fun for everyone.

I'm not one to just ban what's in the books. I'm just thinking I'm possibly missing something that had ended up making this spell outsized in its power at our table. Now while I'm an old timer, I've been learning 5e and I have a nagging feeling we are totally ignoring something basic about running conjure animals that is making it overly strong.

I understand this is unhelpfully vague, I mean you aren't at my table, and it's kinda hard to describe things you don't know you aren't doing. But I figure some of you might be able to offer some sensible obvious things, where if ignored or missed, turn a spell into abuse.

Xeviat · Apr 17, 2017

It's hard to say about what you're experiencing without getting a play by play. But there are a few things to note:

1) It's a concentration spell. The druid can't keep it going while keeping other concentration spells going. If they take damage while they have the spell up, they could lose the spell.

2) By the book, the DM chooses what animals appear; the spell only requires the player to "choose one of the following options".

3) A CR 2 creature is a bit weaker than a PC at that point, and considerably weaker than a CR 5 or higher opponent.

What beasts have they been summoning and what's been making it disruptive?

Jester David · Apr 17, 2017

It is strong. Possibly too strong.
If it's ruining the fun for others, just talk it out. No one wants to wreck the game for others. The game is yours to do with. Ban away. Or modify. Perhaps you need to use an action to command the conjured animals.

Blue · Apr 17, 2017

All of what Xeviat said is true and good, but this one needs to be repeated:

Xeviat said:
2) By the book, the DM chooses what animals appear; the spell only requires the player to "choose one of the following options".

He doesn't get to pick the perfect beasts, he gets what the DM gives. You can make it whatever you want, but when I've seen it cast the DM usually just makes it local beasts.
This really had a huge effect on how powerful the spell was coming across, surprisingly so.

discosoc · Apr 17, 2017

Eric Anondson said:
Except with the party reaching 5th level now, our druid found conjure animal for her 3rd level spell. And it's ruining a lot of fun for everyone.

How so? Is it too powerful? Is it taking too much time to resolve, resulting in other players getting bored? Something else?

I'm not one to just ban what's in the books. I'm just thinking I'm possibly missing something that had ended up making this spell outsized in its power at our table. Now while I'm an old timer, I've been learning 5e and I have a nagging feeling we are totally ignoring something basic about running conjure animals that is making it overly strong.

We still need to know where the problem is to give you ideas on what you might have missed.

I understand this is unhelpfully vague, I mean you aren't at my table, and it's kinda hard to describe things you don't know you aren't doing. But I figure some of you might be able to offer some sensible obvious things, where if ignored or missed, turn a spell into abuse.

It is vague, which is why I'm kind of surprised you didn't give a single example to help us out here. You're basically going to get the usual "make sure the DM chooses the creatures" advice, even though we have no clue what your problem is with the spell.

Sorcerers Apprentice · Apr 17, 2017

I'm surprised you're having this problem playing PotA. Considering how many fireballs and similar AoE damage spells that get thrown around in that campaign, summoned animal packs shouldn't last long enough to be a problem.

CapnZapp · Apr 17, 2017

No you haven't missed anything.

If your players are fine with conjured critters doing their work for them, this spell allows that.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

jaelis · Apr 17, 2017

Level 3 spells are indeed really good when you first get them. But it's only 1/day, right?

-
Edit, sorry 2/day. So that's more impact. But it still does depend quite a bit how many fights per day you are using... along with you choosing the creatures and opponents being smart about area attacks, I guess you have some tools to handle it?

AdmundfortGeographer · Apr 17, 2017

discosoc said:
How so? Is it too powerful? Is it taking too much time to resolve, resulting in other players getting bored? Something else?

...

We still need to know where the problem is to give you ideas on what you might have missed.

You zoomed right past, then quoted exactly the problem I am having.

It is strong. Powerful in the way combats are a load of no fun.

Sit back while 8 giant badgers take on a handful of orcs, or 8 giant owls swarm all the bandit archers, or 8 elks charge into the fray ... basically all of the eight quantity of 1/4 CR creatures joining the party turns it into a rout. It's been a powerful game changer that sucks out fun. We have gotten the idea that 3rd level spells are a new level of power, but this has been a bit much to the point the party is getting the idea the druid could finish off most encounters herself without help from the rest... for now. Shr

But I think one of the early responses reminds me of the most useful, and in our case quickly forgotten by us 5e novices, Concentration. I'm almost certain we're forgetting to make the caster deal with the damage she's taking while she's conjured the beasts.

Croesus · Apr 17, 2017

Xeviat said:
1) It's a concentration spell. The druid can't keep it going while keeping other concentration spells going. If they take damage while they have the spell up, they could lose the spell.

This is a huge limitation, as so many good druid spells are concentration. I often cast pass without trace while the party is exploring, but once combat starts, what then? Entangle, spike growth, heat metal, conjure animals - all are concentration, meaning I'll lose the pass without trace spell. The druid has some great battlefield control effects, but generally can only use one. If the player is casting conjure animals, he's forgoing many other options.

Xeviat said:
2) By the book, the DM chooses what animals appear; the spell only requires the player to "choose one of the following options".

I worked up a spreadsheet showing all the beasts in the MM by CR:
1/8 = 11 options
1/4 = 20 options
1/2 = 9 options
1 = 11 options
2 = 9 options

Some are aquatic, so that skews things a bit (no point in a shark showing up in the desert), but as you can see, the player will be very unsure exactly what will appear. This tends to tone down the spell's power noticeably.

One last note: the most common complaint I've seen for the conjure spells is that the player takes too much time at the table, running both his/her own character and the summoned creatures. If a player can't run the conjured animals in a timely manner, see if you can create "shortcuts" to help, such as all animals target the same creature, if possible (so you can roll all the attacks together). It took my group a little time, but we've gotten things to a point that these spells don't slow down play any more than a wizard who can't decide which spell to cast on his turn.

D&D 5E Am I missing something about Conjure Animal

AdmundfortGeographer

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