D&D General Weekly Wrecana - A New Division of Gish Classes

I rather think the monks solution works fairly well perhaps better than other classes with similar issues

The sheer number of class features and rules exceptions which were required in order to express a simple concept "I make attacks without a weapon which are mechanically on par with weapon/implement attacks" is IMHO what we in the software development business call a 'code smell'.
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The sheer number of class features and rules exceptions which were required in order to express a simple concept "I make attacks without a weapon which are mechanically on par with weapon/implement attacks" is IMHO what we in the software development business call a 'code smell'.

Paladins ought to be able to simply use an investment ritual that makes their magic sword or shield a holy weapon able to act as an implement (perhaps the shield operates like the ki implement does), supporting both an avenging two handed sword build and sword and board paladin.

Could swappable class features for the paladin built the actual Avenger class? maybe not that reroll is a big feature.

My intuition is fewer more flexible classes is good.
 

Paladins ought to be able to simply use an investment ritual that makes their magic sword or shield a holy weapon able to act as an implement (perhaps the shield operates like the ki implement does), supporting both an avenging two handed sword build and sword and board paladin.

Could swappable class features for the paladin built the actual Avenger class? maybe not that reroll is a big feature.

My intuition is fewer more flexible classes is good.

The thing is, implement powers were meant to represent things that might not actually involve explicit attacks, or were not really 'weapon-like' (say something like sleep or some kind of charm or something). Even Divine characters like paladins do this kind of stuff sometimes, so it seemed flavorful and logical to give them implements for it (and certainly the Chaladin finds them fairly thematic). I can see a sword working for a paladin as a substitute, as you outline. However it is ODD that they wouldn't be able to use a holy symbol, otherwise you could just make all their attacks have a weapon keyword (but with whatever ranges you wished, a bit outside the norm but 4e can express that).

However it doesn't work so well for the cleric. The real problem IMHO is the mechanical division of powers between 'weapons' and 'implements', maybe they should all be mechanically equivalent. Instead of having to enter the swamp of 'weaplements' and its attendant feat muddling suckiness, maybe the whole idea should be rethought! This is where I'm stuck right now, how to express the same sort of idea, that you need 'tools' with certain characteristics to make your powers work, but that they may not in fact need to be specific things.

Actually I've been thinking about just making them all equivalent, that is getting rid of the concepts "weapon" and "implement" as rules categories, and just specify what works with a given power.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The thing is, implement powers were meant to represent things that might not actually involve explicit attacks, or were not really 'weapon-like' (say something like sleep or some kind of charm or something). Even Divine characters like paladins do this kind of stuff sometimes, so it seemed flavorful and logical to give them implements for it (and certainly the Chaladin finds them fairly thematic). I can see a sword working for a paladin as a substitute, as you outline. However it is ODD that they wouldn't be able to use a holy symbol, otherwise you could just make all their attacks have a weapon keyword (but with whatever ranges you wished, a bit outside the norm but 4e can express that).

However it doesn't work so well for the cleric. The real problem IMHO is the mechanical division of powers between 'weapons' and 'implements', maybe they should all be mechanically equivalent. Instead of having to enter the swamp of 'weaplements' and its attendant feat muddling suckiness, maybe the whole idea should be rethought! This is where I'm stuck right now, how to express the same sort of idea, that you need 'tools' with certain characteristics to make your powers work, but that they may not in fact need to be specific things.

Actually I've been thinking about just making them all equivalent, that is getting rid of the concepts "weapon" and "implement" as rules categories, and just specify what works with a given power.

Then there is inherent bonuses... what if that concept was woven in to the picture right away.

Seems to relate to my bit about some characters being focused around their big item and some being independently awesome or the Perseus of the many gifts or Atlantean soldier decked out with loads of utility equipment comes forward.
 

Then there is inherent bonuses... what if that concept was woven in to the picture right away.

Seems to relate to my bit about some characters being focused around their big item and some being independently awesome or the Perseus of the many gifts or Atlantean soldier decked out with loads of utility equipment comes forward.

Well, inherent bonuses is useful, it gets rid of some of the mechanical issues with weapliments in 4e, but not all of them. It also doesn't address the thematics. I think implements are COOL. We could simply do away with them, and maybe patch up the difference in bonus between weapon attacks and non-weapon attacks while we're at it (the one caused by proficiency) but in the long run it doesn't matter much. We want to have cool implements, just like we want to have cool weapons (which certainly aren't going away). I suppose we could just make them all nothing but fluff... lol.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
This is where I'm stuck right now, how to express the same sort of idea, that you need 'tools' with certain characteristics to make your powers work, but that they may not in fact need to be specific things.
5e has a take on this - for spellcasters, of course - it presents traditional material components, but has alternatives to tracking all of them, you can, instead, have a 'spell component pouch' (a la 3.x), and not track no-gp-cost components, though you're still assumed to use them, or you can use a Focus (4e implement with the serial numbers filed off) for all your spells, though you still need any gp-cost components, as well.
 

Igwilly

First Post
Sorry for taking so long, I was busy.
What else are they? They operate by supra-mundane contrafactual processes. This is the very definition of magic.
No, that’s one possible definition of magic, and a very poor one, in my opinion. There are several things which can break the laws of physics – be supernatural – which includes but is not limited to: Magic; Psionics; Qi/Ki manipulation; Superheroes’ genetics; some suspicious “ultra-advanced technology” (although I do grant that’s a stretch); plus some other isolated cases such as The Force (Star Wars); that dragon language in Skyrim (I don’t remember the name, but I think it fits); some Limit Breaks from Final Fantasy which are still unexplained; and at some point I thought about making dragon’s power not magic – I just don’t know if that’s a good idea. There’s one more case, but it touches on a dangerous subject here, so let’s leave at that.
Answering your question: psionics is not magic. Psionics is… Psionics. A direct class of supernatural power. In fact, as I was discussing with a fellow user, Psionics me be much more related to Qi than to magic itself; perhaps possibly being the same. That’s an interesting proposition – which depends on the writer, but still interesting. I would work on it.
But no, not magic.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
5e has a take on this - for spellcasters, of course - it presents traditional material components, but has alternatives to tracking all of them, you can, instead, have a 'spell component pouch' (a la 3.x),

A bat poop bag.

and not track no-gp-cost components, though you're still assumed to use them, or you can use a Focus (4e implement with the serial numbers filed off) for all your spells, though you still need any gp-cost components, as well.

Focus is a pertty old concept and term.. perfectly reasonable filing job.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I liked more of the AD&D 1e assassin than 3.X or 4e assassin. I may change my mind on future but I do not know.

4e actually has both ... Rogue unless you work to make it otherwise rather defaults to martial assassin. And look at the Paragon paths the word Assassin is definitely on the roster.
 

5e has a take on this - for spellcasters, of course - it presents traditional material components, but has alternatives to tracking all of them, you can, instead, have a 'spell component pouch' (a la 3.x), and not track no-gp-cost components, though you're still assumed to use them, or you can use a Focus (4e implement with the serial numbers filed off) for all your spells, though you still need any gp-cost components, as well.

Yeah, but the focus doesn't really DO anything. The 'pouch' is also IMHO more of a way of just making components an optional rule than it is anything like an actual tool. 4e's implements have a much more significant role in the game, you actually WIELD them. I'd like to keep that aspect, but without the mess of forcing people to have them all the time and keep both a weapon and an implement of a relevant degree of enchantment (and the corresponding worthlessness of any attack that actually does NOT use either one, though admittedly this is significantly better with inherent bonuses).

Honestly my solution so far is to just keep item bonuses down to a small number, no more than +3 (given that I'm doing a 20 level progression this isn't actually so far off from 4e's progression). Beyond that the stacking rules are such that 'enhancement' isn't a bonus type, there is only 'permanent bonus', which covers any sort of bonus that isn't proficiency, level, or ability score related. This means typically you might only lose one point of to-hit if you don't have your sword (and maybe none at all). You might lose access to a power or something, but I think that issue is overall solved. So its more the desire to let characters be able to utilize both physical and magical attacks without a lot of klunkiness.
 

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