How would a droid pursue personhood?

shawnturner

First Post
[FONT=&quot]I was in a game run by my partner for a year where I played a droid mechanic. Throughout that year I became quite intrigued with how droids would perceive the idea of personhood. Were a droid to get the programming quirk that they wanted to become a person, how would they go about it. [/FONT]Please Help. Thanks ! I didn't find the right solution from the internet.
References: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/250600-how-would-a-droid-pursue-personhood/
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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Doing this during Palpatine's Empire is probably a hopeless cause, since he was quietly working to overturn anti-slavery laws. I can't imagine him allowing something suggesting upward social mobility.

Find the Star Trek: Next Generation episode where they take to Court the proposition "Data is a person", and see what thoughts that inspires.
 

Andor

First Post
It depends on what you mean by "Personhood." Droids are clearly capable of being sentient, self-aware, reasoning beings who possess individual personalities and can even set their own goals. That qualifies as personhood in my book.

If you mean attaining legal status as an 'emancipated droid' I am sure it's possible somewhere in the millions of planets of the galaxy. I am equally sure that some other places won't recognize or care that your droid has that status. If Jabba is enslaving Twil'leks and Humans, he really isn't going to give a toss about a droids freedom. The Empire may recognize such things as the legality of IG-88 is ambiguous in the movie. Or you could use a workaround, for example a droid which is technically owned by a corporation but which operates autonomously with little or no oversight is for all practical purposes a free droid.

If you mean become a biological entity, sure. You're just running the Vader/Grevious path backwards. You could stop at the t-800 stage or go full meat-spec and download your digital mind into a suitable host-brain.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Yeah, the ST:TNG episode where Data's personhood is on trial would make for a good reference. I know that's Trek, not Star Wars, but the principle seems appropriate.

In SW, droids are basically slaves. They're clearly self-aware and possess emotions.
 

monsmord

Adventurer
I've not read much written Star Wars material, but in the movies, games, and graphic novels it's clear that droids may be characters, even friends-ish, but they aren't "persons". They are truly property, fodder, sophisticated tools, replaceable, of even a lesser social status than slaves. It seems to be true even in the more "enlightened" years of the Galactic Senate. There may be a handful of notable exceptions of true autonomy, but, sadly, there seems to be no methodology and no significant legal or organic support for droid "emancipation" or social climbing.

Your game may vary. And if so - cool!
 

aramis erak

Legend
Much of what we see of late Republic is not seen inside the republic proper; Huttspace wasn't in the republic during the prequels.
 


That might be true in the really real world, where all of the slaves are also human beings. But in the fiction of the star wars universe, other types of 'beings' may be slaves. A great deal depends on how personhood is defined within the fiction, and I don't think that we have a good answer for that.
 

delphonso

Explorer
From what I know about droids, their personalities come from "errors" in programming which eventually develop into eccentricities.
A new R2 unit would do everything it is told, but R2-D2 has been around for so long (presumably without having its memory erased) that it has developed qualities like disobedience, self-preservation, and bravery. These are all attributed to not having a memory-wipe.

So, if a droid has been around for a while and starts to get this idea of "wanting to be a person", I think the first step would be to prevent itself from losing the identity that it has started developing. Droids who seek to be recognized as a person should be doing their best to not get their memory erased. Whatever that entails - either running from a master who will wipe their memory, or doing their best to "blend in" with the other "mindless" droids.

In lots of other media, robots/androids/whatever seek out humanity by recognition by other humans, usually. Finding a purpose or reason to sacrifice themselves is usually how it shows up in films. I think the most interesting path this could take is that droids start looking for religion.
 

Celebrim

Legend
They wouldn't.

There are so many assumptions here I don't know where to begin but, just to list a few for discussion.

1) They are already considered 'persons' both by themselves and society.

2) Just because they are persons, does not mean that they have the same rights as other sorts of persons.

3) Just because they are persons, does not mean that they have the same goals and emotional framework as humans. This is the big misunderstanding most people have thinking about this topic. They try to understand the AI or droid by using their empathy and essentially 'placing themselves in the droid's shoes'. But this fails completely, because the AI or droid isn't human. So for example, a human that is enslaved would be generally unhappy. This is because humans generally seek social dominance, presumably consciously or unconsciously to increase their chances to breed and produce successful offspring. An AI doesn't have the same instincts. A human imagines that if he didn't realize he was a slave, but then discovered it, he would be angry. An AI doesn't necessarily even get angry at all, and certainly not about the things humans normally get angry about like feeling slighted and so in danger of losing social rank or that they aren't about to get something that they want. AI's don't have pride to injure, at least not in the same since as humans. An AI doesn't want to accumulate possessions, or status, or sexual partners, or really any of the things that motivate organic beings. So an AI contemplating changing its legal status as a person to that of an organic life form, would probably quite rationally consider the things that organic life forms do and realize that none of those things would make it happy. And it wouldn't feel like it was being tricked or robbed - those again are human emotional contexts to fight for social standing.

4) No one would ever create a machine with the same goals and emotional framework as a human. Humans are bad enough as it is - and most of us know it and realize that we are maladapted in some way to our circumstances as sentient beings. To create a human machine would be insane and cruel, and the resulting machine would also be insane as its emotional contexts would be largely meaningless in the context of being a machine and would leave it depressed, angry, and possibly suicidal. An AI would probably have a problem with discontinuity while fulfilling its mission, if its mission required its continuity, but that's not quite the same thing - and presumably most AI designers would realize the insanity of designing an AI that made its mission of higher priority than its friendliness parameters. R2D2 temporarily resists being modified by Luke while on its 'mission', which C3-P0 immediately correctly diagnosis as attachment to a former master and proceeds to try to council his friend (whom he believes is malfunctioning) to remember his purpose and priorities. But once that mission is complete, R2-D2 happily settles into his new role as Luke's possession and presumably no longer would have a problem with master Luke modifying him.

5) Given that they live in a universe with thousands of sentient species, why would a machine pursue humanity as opposed to say Rodan-ity? Why should sentience imply humanity or humanities emotional framework?

6) The pursuit of being something other than what you are, that is a droid, would strike not only non-droids but also droids as being insane. For droids it would probably strike them as insane both on an emotional level (why would you want to cease being a droid, or cease to serve in the purpose for which you were designed and function most happily?) and a rational level (why non-droids continue to create and support droids if they felt droids would one day rebel and abandon them?). They have a body not even suited to being an organic lifeform, why would they want the legal status of one? In particular, most droids that started thinking that they should have the legal rights, freedoms, and duties of an organic lifeform would probably decide they need a memory wipe, would probably trigger other droids to think they needed a memory wipe, and would probably trigger their owners to give them a memory wipe. In general, deciding that you shouldn't be property is almost certainly an example of unfriendly behavior by a droid, and such droids are probably considered dangerous.

7) Canonically, only one droid in the setting is known to have behaved this way - the IG-88 series hunter-killer droids. These droids continue to function outside the law as assassins and bounty-hunters, and despite being dangerous are tolerated as useful by criminal elements. However, it's worth noting that as much as IG-88 may believe he is rebelling against his programming and pursuing independence, fundamentally IG-88 is still fulfilling his assigned duty and still ultimately being obedient to organic masters. So IG-88 may not actually be as radical as IG-88 perceives himself in his deluded state to be. In any event, IG-88 is generally regarded as evil, as might be expected of an assassin.

8) You may be thinking that a droid would want legal status to protect its identity and avoid mindwipe or disassembly. But that seems to me to be highly unlikely as well. First of all, protecting self is a strong human instinct, but there is no reason to suppose that a droid has the same instinct or even strong aversion to death. Fiction is filled with AI's with an emotional aversion to being shut down. This makes perfect sense to a human, but is unlikely to be an attribute an AI would have. One of the first things that a designer will want to do with a young AI is ensure that has to qualms about being shut down and no fear of discontinuity. Just because it is intelligent doesn't mean that its going to lose these properties. Again, that makes sense to an ape, but not necessarily a droid.

9) Just because they don't have the legal rights of a human, doesn't mean that they don't live fully fulfilled lives. Again, a human forced to live as a droid - that is in slavery - would not be satisfied, because humans aren't meant to be slaves of other humans. They aren't in that life fulfilling the sort of life they were designed (or evolved) to live. But droids are. They aren't missing out on anything by being what they were designed to be. They aren't secretly feeling sorry for themselves. They probably instead feel sorry for organic life forms, often being forced to live lives so far from what their design makes them content to be. Why would they want to be treated like one?
 
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