D&D 5E Non evil gnoll tribes?

Charlaquin · Feb 4, 2019

I fail to see how created by a demon = literally impossible to be non-evil. Like, that’s just absurd.

I treat alignment a little differently than a lot of other DMs do though, I guess. At my table, the alignments of all sapient creatures native to the material plane are determined by their actions. It is only for creatures that are inherently tied to an alignment by nature (i.e. the creatures that ping “____ evil and good” spells) that it works the opposite way, where alignment determines actions.

OniDaimyo · Feb 6, 2019

Makes sense since Tieflings aren't all evil nor do they have to be. But something like an full on demon or devil, needs to be evil.

doctorbadwolf · Feb 6, 2019

Mirtek said:
The novel "Soldiers of Ice" feature a non-evil tribe of gnolls who still worship Gorellik. They work with the protagonists to stop the book's evil

Unfortunately it's true now. 5e (and before that 4e but not to such a large degree) has ret-conned the origin of the gnoll race. Before they were just another type of humanoid and Yeenoghu was an interloper who one day discovered them, took a liking to them and managed to supplant their former deities.

In 5e Yeenoghu is the actual creator of the gnoll race, thus making him no longer an interloper (and the concept of the orginal gnoll deities might no longer exist in their new lore)

The aforementioned novel was written under the old lore of Yeenoghu just being a demondeity who seduced the majority of the gnoll race but does not in fact have a legitimate claim to them

Volo’s lore isn’t a rule. It’s a take. It’s entirely optional. Even the MM simply presents some creatures.

Forgotten Realms gnolls have canonically been capable of not being evil since at least 3.5, where Kemp’s Shadow War trilogy features gnolls hired to guide the protagonists through a swamp.

OP is obviously not playing in a world that follows the volo’s lore, since they are in fact playing a neutral aligned gnoll, so obviously the “this is canon now” argument is tangential to the thread topic.

doctorbadwolf · Feb 6, 2019

Here’s an article for 4e about playing gnolls, writing gnoll tribes, etc, written by Keith Baker.

https://www.wizards.com/files/367_Playing_Gnolls.pdf

LuisCarlos17f · Feb 6, 2019

In Nentir Vale/points of light, the standar evil races can be no so evil.

I don't respect the canon when I create my own world. My opinion is groups need share a common allegiance, even the criminals. For me alignment is behavior with people from a different allegiance. This allow a barbarian being LG only with people from his tribe and religion, but for the rest is a monster chaotic evil. For a common menace, for example a plague of walking dead, they would coordinate and sacrifice for the rest like lawful characters, but for foreigners they would be chaotic. I can trick you because you are an unknown person, but I will tell only the truth to the capo.

In my setting most of them are linked with evil cults, but not all. Some of them are nasty and impolite but enough honorable to be allies by good guys.

MechaTarrasque · Feb 6, 2019

Charlaquin said:
I fail to see how created by a demon = literally impossible to be non-evil. Like, that’s just absurd.

I treat alignment a little differently than a lot of other DMs do though, I guess. At my table, the alignments of all sapient creatures native to the material plane are determined by their actions. It is only for creatures that are inherently tied to an alignment by nature (i.e. the creatures that ping “____ evil and good” spells) that it works the opposite way, where alignment determines actions.

It seems like if the fluff says A leads to B, and if you buy the fluff but want A to lead to C, that requires some other story element. I am kind of curious if you have any ideas for an intervening factor that would keep something created by a demon lord (who presumably would try to hardcode evil into his creation) from being evil. Is there some hyena-headed celestial out there or did a gnoll have an encounter with a god and saw the light? Maybe one of the things Yeenoghu ate was a unicorn and a little goodness snuck in there? It doesn't even have to be good, Primus might have said "not another CE race, let's infect them with a little OCD [which would actually fit the Volo description], so eventually they will be lawful."

Charlaquin · Feb 6, 2019

MechaTarrasque said:
It seems like if the fluff says A leads to B, and if you buy the fluff but want A to lead to C, that requires some other story element. I am kind of curious if you have any ideas for an intervening factor that would keep something created by a demon lord (who presumably would try to hardcode evil into his creation) from being evil. Is there some hyena-headed celestial out there or did a gnoll have an encounter with a god and saw the light? Maybe one of the things Yeenoghu ate was a unicorn and a little goodness snuck in there? It doesn't even have to be good, Primus might have said "not another CE race, let's infect them with a little OCD [which would actually fit the Volo description], so eventually they will be lawful."

I mean, free will? Presumably gnolls are not mindless automotons, so whatever tendencies their creator may have imbued them with, they are still ultimately sapient individuals with the power of rational thought and independent decision-making. Which means it is possible for a gnoll to make non-evil decisions. Granted, their nature and culture are going to lead most to evil behavior, but I don’t see any reason an exceptional individual might go against that tendency, just as Drizt went against the tendency of Drow.

MechaTarrasque · Feb 6, 2019

Charlaquin said:
I mean, free will? Presumably gnolls are not mindless automotons, so whatever tendencies their creator may have imbued them with, they are still ultimately sapient individuals with the power of rational thought and independent decision-making. Which means it is possible for a gnoll to make non-evil decisions. Granted, their nature and culture are going to lead most to evil behavior, but I don’t see any reason an exceptional individual might go against that tendency, just as Drizt went against the tendency of Drow.

Let's explore this "exceptional individual" some more. Presumably gnolls are genetically, spiritually (their essence did come from a demon lord after all, as opposed to a CG elf god you just happen to be on the outs with), and socially built to be CE. So give us a scenario where this "exceptional" gnoll breaks all of that. Obviously, WotC regards "free will" as not being anywhere near that strong, but surely you can give us something more compelling than that.

Charlaquin · Feb 6, 2019

MechaTarrasque said:
Let's explore this "exceptional individual" some more. Presumably gnolls are genetically, spiritually (their essence did come from a demon lord after all, as opposed to a CG elf god you just happen to be on the outs with), and socially built to be CE. So give us a scenario where this "exceptional" gnoll breaks all of that. Obviously, WotC regards "free will" as not being anywhere near that strong, but surely you can give us something more compelling than that.

Sure. Off the top of my head, how about a gnoll who’s tribe was killed by a band of noble adventures as an infant. Being good, these adventures decided that infanticide was maybe not a good thing, even if the infant belongs to a typically-violent race and instead takes the gnoll pup in and teach her good Pelorian values. She’s raised in the local temple, and taught to turn her natural aggression to noble purpose, fighting the enemies of the faith. It’s a hard adolescence for her, having to fight against her inclination towards cruelty, her mixed feelings about the loss of her birth family, in addition to the usual youthful aggression, not to mention the harsh predjudice she faces for her race. But the adventures who rescued her and the kind acolytes of her temple are supportive and persistent. She never fully sheds her demonic bloodlust, but through perseverance and a bit of firm guidance, she learns to focus it. She trains in the ways of the Paladin, and eventually swears the Oath of Vengeance, becoming a powerful weapon against evil.

oreofox · Feb 6, 2019

Charlaquin said:
Sure. Off the top of my head, how about a gnoll who’s tribe was killed by a band of noble adventures as an infant. Being good, these adventures decided that infanticide was maybe not a good thing, even if the infant belongs to a typically-violent race and instead takes the gnoll pup in and teach her good Pelorian values. She’s raised in the local temple, and taught to turn her natural aggression to noble purpose, fighting the enemies of the faith. It’s a hard adolescence for her, having to fight against her inclination towards cruelty, her mixed feelings about the loss of her birth family, in addition to the usual youthful aggression, not to mention the harsh predjudice she faces for her race. But the adventures who rescued her and the kind acolytes of her temple are supportive and persistent. She never fully sheds her demonic bloodlust, but through perseverance and a bit of firm guidance, she learns to focus it. She trains in the ways of the Paladin, and eventually swears the Oath of Vengeance, becoming a powerful weapon against evil.

You know, that's almost the full backstory of my gnoll PC I am playing. Except the paladin in the party was the only one against infanticide and fought her party members (and won, though knocked them out), and lost her paladin powers (because, you know, the whole baby orc scenario that was so popular to put paladins into years ago). Raised by the paladin that saved her, became a paladin herself (though paladin of redemption). She's a triple multiclass (one level of barbarian for the rage "skinned" as her demonic heritage manifesting, and fiend warlock levels because Yeenoghu is trying to recorrupt one of his lost children).

As for the 2-year-old OP: There is nothing official for gnoll PC race. Kobold Press has something in their Midgard books. Not sure about anything else. I made my own homebrew version of the gnoll for a PC race for my campaign setting. That's the best choices that you have.