D&D 5E Why I Am Starting to Prefer 4d6 Drop the Lowest Over the Default Array.

Sacrosanct · Jun 21, 2017

I admit, the Traveller part of me sometimes think, "Stop complaining about 4d6 and getting a lower value in one stat. My PC's can DIE during chargen...."

FormerlyHemlock · Jun 21, 2017

Sacrosanct said:
I admit, the Traveller part of me sometimes think, "Stop complaining about 4d6 and getting a lower value in one stat. My PC's can DIE during chargen...."

5E PCs can die during chargen too. Here's a (primitive) tool for deadly 5E chargen: https://maxwilson.github.io/Beast/AbstractDungeoneering/ It really makes you appreciate how much better off you are adventuring with a party instead of solo.

Any PC you roll up using that tool, you are welcome to bring to my table.

dco · Jun 21, 2017

I don't like the point cost table, it's capped at 15 and the non linear approach means there won't be equal stat points/modifiers at the end.

Satyrn · Jun 21, 2017

Lanefan said:
Directed across the board, though I may have been quoting you in some preamble that led up to asking it.

O drat. My attempt at witty sarcasm fell flat. See, I was rather trying to suggest that there's no lot of people who dislike rolling, and that you were misrepresenting the position of those who prefer point buy.

I like rolling, but I prefer point buy.

But anyway. My table de-randomized Hit Points back in 4th edition (because 4th edition derandomized them) and we carried that with us when we went back to 3e and then onward to 5e.

And, interestingly, 5e offers derandomized hit points alongside randomized hitpoints just as it does with ability score generation.

BookBarbarian · Jun 22, 2017

Satyrn said:
And, interestingly, 5e offers derandomized hit points alongside randomized hitpoints just as it does with ability score generation.

It's almost like 5e is trying to support different styles of play!

FormerlyHemlock · Jun 22, 2017

Satyrn said:
But anyway. My table de-randomized Hit Points back in 4th edition (because 4th edition derandomized them) and we carried that with us when we went back to 3e and then onward to 5e.

And, interestingly, 5e offers derandomized hit points alongside randomized hitpoints just as it does with ability score generation.

Even more interesting, the defaults are different:

In 5E, by default you get a fixed amount of HP, but you can choose to roll (which gets you lower numbers on average).

Also in 5E, by default you roll stats, but you can choose to use standard array or point buy (which gets you lower numbers on average).

One wonders what WotC's reasons are for pushing new players (most players?) in opposite directions for stats vs. HP, w/rt randomness. It's interesting.

Lanefan · Jun 22, 2017

Hemlock said:
Even more interesting, the defaults are different:

In 5E, by default you get a fixed amount of HP, but you can choose to roll (which gets you lower numbers on average).

Also in 5E, by default you roll stats, but you can choose to use standard array or point buy (which gets you lower numbers on average).

One wonders what WotC's reasons are for pushing new players (most players?) in opposite directions for stats vs. HP, w/rt randomness. It's interesting.

Possibly because in each case the default gives on average a slightly higher result?

KahlessNestor · Jun 22, 2017

Seule said:
Stat envy is when someone else's character is better at what your character's main schtick is than you are. It is trivial to imagine a party where the Bard (primary stat Charisma) has a lower Perform score than several other characters simply because they had a spare 16+ to stick into that stat while the Bard had nothing over 13. Or even lower. Similarly, a Fighter having a lower attack bonus than the Wizard, or whatever else you want to measure that other characters can theoretically try.
I'm not saying that rolled stats are bad necessarily, I'm just saying that if you use rolled stats you have to take into account that it can go badly. I want my randomness during play, not in determining which characters are more powerful.
This page (http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/) shows that the odds of getting at least 1 14+ are about 92.8%. That means that an entire party rolling up stats, the odds are pretty good (each has a 7.2%, or about 1/14) that someone will have a dud array and be good at precisely nothing. It's about the same odds, in fact, that someone will have an 18+ (9.34%). I'll take the certainly of having a playable character who can contribute over the chance of having a powerhouse... who will then overshadow other characters if I'm not careful.

This is why I emphasize to my new players that everyone should take different classes and find a niche in the party. I don't make them (they can play what they want), but I do tell them they will likely have more fun if they're not the "second string fighter". But maybe that's my preferred method of game play.

I know what stat envy is. I just haven't seen it. It seems to be a "learned response". I have felt it, but it's usually because someone new comes into a game with a character without taking into consideration the rest of the party (and in FFG Star Wars, where you get a MASSIVE XP dump to just make your focus skills divine, as opposed to mine where XP has been dribbling out over multiple sessions. But that's more a system problem than stat envy).

KahlessNestor · Jun 22, 2017

Hemlock said:
Also bear in mind that in 5E, as opposed to other games like e.g. Shadowrun, there are aspects which have no numerical bonus associated with them at all. You can always pick those shticks regardless of what you roll (although RP considerations like low Int might conceivably restrict you from choosing some of them).

Choose one or more of the following:

The Supercharger: the guy who kicks other characters into overdrive with Bless/Haste/Warding Bond/Polymorph/Enhance Ability.
The Healer: the guy who keeps everybody uncursed, not turned to stone, alive, and at full HP.
The Arcanist: the guy who makes sure the party always has a safe place to rest, can always teleport to adventure and/or to safety, can decipher languages, etc.
The Summoner: the guy who spies or fights by proxy using conjured elementals, animals, familiars, and/or Chainlock invocations.

I believe these are the main non-numerical aspects I've seen. They are pretty broad, and ideally you'd like to always have one (or more!) of each in a given party, but you can't because there aren't enough PCs (in a four- or five-man party) to fill these roles and other, more stat-dependent roles like "ranged specialist" or "crowd control." So even if you roll up an array of all 3s, make a character that fills some or all of these aspects and you'll be making a valuable contribution, if you can bring yourself to roleplay a barely-sentient vegetable.

For example, I give you

JoeBob the Clerical Savant: senile, 120-year-old adventurer on his last legs, can barely think--but old reflexes die hard!

NG Human Trickery Cleric 7
Str 3 Dex 3 Con 3 Int 3 Wis 3 Cha 3 HP 24
Feats: Tough, Lucky
Skills: Stealthy, Perception, [some others]

JoeBob is barely sentient any more and will probably die any second now. He can barely even communicate, but he still (barely) remembers some old adventuring tricks which he can still use if somebody asks him. For example, if you tell him, "Hey, JoeBob, let's you and me play Mama Bear, okay?" he will twitch his fingers and cast Warding Bond on you, and then Polymorph himself into a T-Rex who follows you around trying to keep you safe via the Warding Bond and his loads of extra HP. If you tell him, "Hey, JoeBob, I need to be sneaky," he will bless you with the tricker's blessing (advantage), and if you ask him to come with you he will also cast Pass Without Trace and follow you around. (His total Stealth bonus under such conditions is +9, which is still respectable.)

He also has triggers for casting Bless, Dodging, casting Dispel Magic/Greater Restoration, healing wounds, and running away as fast as he can.

He shows little initiative and won't generally do anything outside of these predefined parameters (will not innovate tactically), except drool and stammer. Nevertheless he is surprisingly stringy and tough for such a frail-looking old man, and fate has so far smiled on him enough to keep him alive.

Yes, this. I had a fighter in my last group that decided he wanted to go Eldritch Knight. He had an 8 or 9 Int. I told him he could function just fine as an EK if he avoided spells with attack rolls or saves, and he did work just fine.