D&D 5E Warden: Full Class (in early stage development) [PEACH]

Hi There,


So this is more a vanity project thing more than anything else - I might look into introducing it in my homebrew game at some point for further testing if it gets that far. But mostly, it's because I had an unbridled love for the old Warden class in Lord of the Rings Online, and wanted to see if I could bring together a coherent package to fit into the 5e system, but not make it so narrow focused that it could only ever be the LOTRO Warden.


I've tried to build a chassis that supports a few different play styles, but also nudges choices towards historically sub optimal choices (Sword and board Strength builds).....most of the balance is instinctive at the moment (I've run some numbers and they're not insane, but long term it'd need time on the table to see if a low HP, medium AC Front line fighter can cut it long term).


So sit back, grab a spear and shield, and dive into....The Warden


At the moment I know there's a bit of formatting issues, and I know I've only done a couple of read throughs for types, so I suspect there's plenty still in there (Along with discrepancies over wording and so on).. And alas, no pictures as of yet. But still, I'd be really interested in peoples thoughts as to how it stands as a class and - more importantly - as a mechanic. What they like and what they feel is too much or out of place. Your basic first impressions so to speak...


Thanks in advance!!

Bump?

Before going any further, I think the biggest problem with sword and board with STR is that if you are going STR based melee, GWM and Polearm Master give so much more upside. Without those feats I think it would see a lot more use. Or if there was more mechanics to tanking. I've played a paladin with sword and board because they were very defender-y.

Okay, stream of consciousness comments while I'm reading:

d6 HD, light armor, and a quick build that doesn't suggest prioritizing dex - this needs features to fill in these gaps if it'll be a melee class. I'll keep an eye out for them.

Very ranger-y skills.

Side ntoe: Level table is titled: The Archivist

Natural defender - STR in place of DEX with a shield. Thematically missing anything to explain, but mechanically sound. A normal thought would worry about overloading, but STR has so little this isn't a concern. Does mean that if they ever lose their equipment (or wants to fire a two handed ranged weapon) that they will be ill equipped.

Aspects - this seems to give out aspects that last forever and stack with each other. I don't know if that is the intention. You can hand out one with every attack during an attack action, regardless if you hit or miss (is that also intended)?

There's a paragraph in a third column off to the side that's mostly cut off, don't know if it has to do with this. the lines start with You, Invok(e), on a, are, targe(t), targe(t), If, and gain.

Kata gives out something a bit less damage then hunter's mark or hex, but requires no bonus actions, spell slots, or concentration, making it a bit mroe powerful.

Brott implies the attack is with the shield via flavor test. It doesn't say how much damage the shield should do and reduces attack damage by d4. That slightly less on average as the Heavy Armor Mastery feat, but since it's just against "attacks" it will help against spell attack as well.

Haran steals HPs and heals you the first time, and then you just heal every time you attack the target, on a failed save. This quickly blows second wind out of the water. It also means a lot more saves, one for each attack, which will slow down play.

Tarjetti is confusing. I think you're still making a normal attack but without ability modifier to damage, AND buffing all allies in 30' to reroll their next weapon damage dice. Then you also debufff the target so your allies do d4 extra damage to it. Great with focus fire or few enemies. This is a lot to hand out without taking up any of your action economy and just reducing your damage by ability score, much less then your allies will ad back in.

Okay, just reading this far, if these can stack and there is no resource cost for them, these are very powerful. All other classes have things like spell slots, need for concentration for buffs and debuffs. I need to read further, but I'd recommend redoing these completely to make them interesting tactical choices with resource uses so you chose when to use them instead of just no-brainer buffs that likely are too powerful for at-will.

That said, at this point they only scale with number of attacks, so at higher levels they end up not having much effect except adding die rolls.

Skipping back to the by-level table, i see "Aspects (2)". Does that mean you only start with half of them? No where does it say to chose them.

Next section is reinforced aspects. There is nothing in either the description nor the by-level that says when you get this feature. If you get it with Aspects you should probably mark it so.

This allows you to stack the same aspect on multiple times ....

wait, the things that are already at-will, multiple times per round now stack.

Sorry, what?

Okay, I have to stop here. This is already out-of-league with other classes. I think having choices to use Aspects because there's a cost and limit (uses, concentration?) to them might make this work out, but as it is now it's just a huge pile of stacking buffs and debuffs which is not a 5e way of doing things.

Hi there Blue,

Thanks for commenting and reading thus far - I think you're largely following a lot of my reasoning and pointing out some interesting things/confirming a few worries. I appreciate the mechanic is a little off the wall, but obviously I'm trying to stay true the the LOTRO Warden if I can....

Blue said:

Aspects - this seems to give out aspects that last forever and stack with each other. I don't know if that is the intention. You can hand out one with every attack during an attack action, regardless if you hit or miss (is that also intended)?

There's a paragraph in a third column off to the side that's mostly cut off, don't know if it has to do with this. the lines start with You, Invok(e), on a, are, targe(t), targe(t), If, and gain.

Click to expand...

GAHH!!!!.... - This is where the problem has arisen. Annoyingly I'm not seeing that either - I have two neat columns in the viewer.

OK so the all important bit of text you are missing is this:

You only ever place one Aspect on a target whenever you Invoke an Aspect, but you may place more than one Aspect on a target during subsequent invocations. At 1st level, you are capable of maintaining a maximum of 2 Aspects on any one target. The number of Aspects you can place on any one target increases to 3 at 7th level, and to 4 at 14th level.
If you place 2 or more of the same Aspect on a target, you gain new benefits for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Aspects.

So you can have a max of 2 in place to begin with - they don't have to be different, and if they are the same they get the following perks.....and so on.

Does this clear things up?

Blue said:

Kata gives out something a bit less damage then hunter's mark or hex, but requires no bonus actions, spell slots, or concentration, making it a bit more powerful.

Click to expand...

I did intend it to be similar to Hunter's mark (as this is really the main source of damage), does the fact you "miss" a turn setting this up compensate of is this still a decent chunk above Hunter's Mark/Hex?

Blue said:

Brott implies the attack is with the shield via flavor test.

Click to expand...

Yes you're correct....I need to change the wording on that. Also it does just STR mod damage.

Blue said:

Haran steals HPs and heals you the first time, and then you just heal every time you attack the target, on a failed save. This quickly blows second wind out of the water. It also means a lot more saves, one for each attack, which will slow down play.

Click to expand...

I've gone back and emphasised it fires on a hit, not any attack. This is also how the class makes up for its d6 and mid-range AC, through regeneration (this was a core feature of the LOTRO Warden so I kinda needed the mechanic in there). I hear you about the saving throw thing (I was a bit iffy about it). Probably if it's the only save on the board it's ok....but how likely is that?....hmm...I'll have a think to see if there's a way to streamline this.....

Blue said:

Tarjetti is confusing. I think you're still making a normal attack but without ability modifier to damage, AND buffing all allies in 30' to reroll their next weapon damage dice. Then you also debufff the target so your allies do d4 extra damage to it. Great with focus fire or few enemies. This is a lot to hand out without taking up any of your action economy and just reducing your damage by ability score, much less then your allies will ad back in.

Click to expand...

This is all correct - the economy here was supposed to be the fact you use up one of the aspect slots that could be used for healing, defense or extra damage - does this seem like a fair trade off? Would dropping the initial attack help the balance do you think?


Sooo....If it's not too much to ask it'd be great if you could look again with fresh(-ish) eyes - if only at the core mechanics. At the very least, if you could have a peek and let me know if I've managed to fix the column issue and got the important text back on the page that would be awesome (I'm not seeing the problem so if it's missing, that a MASSIVE issue). Which browser are you using? IE? Forefox? Chrome?

Thanks again

Hillsy7 said:

You only ever place one Aspect on a target whenever you Invoke an Aspect, but you may place more than one Aspect on a target during subsequent invocations. At 1st level, you are capable of maintaining a maximum of 2 Aspects on any one target. The number of Aspects you can place on any one target increases to 3 at 7th level, and to 4 at 14th level.
If you place 2 or more of the same Aspect on a target, you gain new benefits for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Aspects

Click to expand...

Thanks! Bad browser, that paragraph makes a whole world of difference. Only one Aspect active, but you can reinforce it with additional hits of the same is way different they layering all spects on the same target (and then reinforcing them up). Makes more sense and more balanced.

When I have some more time I'll jump back in for more feedback.

Blue said:

Thanks! Bad browser, that paragraph makes a whole world of difference. Only one Aspect active, but you can reinforce it with additional hits of the same is way different they layering all spects on the same target (and then reinforcing them up). Makes more sense and more balanced.

When I have some more time I'll jump back in for more feedback.

Click to expand...

Cool - thanks....

yeah I need to word it in a way where it's about slots and types: You have 2 slots on a target, and if both slots have the same colour in, you get a power up....

Also, if you think that should be explained before the "Reinforced Aspect" section, I think I can move the first paragraph earlier if you reckon that'll help with clarity.

I will bake cookies in exchange for feedback.....

Disclaimer: I may also eat them myself

Bump?