D&D 5E How powerful do you make Identify?

Although I have been running a 5e game for a year now, I only recently tripped over a situation in which a player used Identify and I realized that I had not really thought through the implications of what seems to be the intent of the spell description. Previously, my players had found several magic items, cast Identify on them, learned their properties and how to use them and everyone was happy. Then they came across an item that has been turned to stone, but will revert if a command word is spoken. They discovered it was magical with Detect Magic, and then (quite reasonably) cast Identify on it. This left me with two immediate problems and one larger one.

1. The spell that had been cast on it had no name. Perhaps I should have invented one, but instead I simply described the effect: the item had been transmuted and the effect was reversible by speaking a 'mundane incantation'. (I thought that should be fine, but it made the player of the Wizard cranky because he is under the impression that PHB spells are the only magical effects that [ought to] exist in the world. But I guess that is a topic for another thread.)
2. The caster that transmuted the item had no intention of producing an effect that could be worked around with a 1st level spell. But as written, Identify is (arguably) pretty potent ("you learn [the object's] properties and how to use them"). In this case, I did not disclose the command word. (This caused my Wizard player to give me the look that says, "Ok, you are the DM and it's no big deal, but that seems arbitrary." That look always causes me to worry.)
3. If I were to allow Identify to reveal the command word, how does it not become an "I win button" for many puzzle-type obstacles that are somehow magic-dependent?

For reference, here is the description of the spell.

PHB said:

You choose one object that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. If it is a magic item or some other magic-imbued object, you learn its properties and how to use them, whether it requires attunement to use, and how many charges it has, if any. You learn whether any spells are affecting it and what they are. If the item was created by a spell, you learn which spell created it.

If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it.

Click to expand...

Note 1: I realize that I might possibly have ruled that the object is, at this point, just mundane stone and so not magical, but a) that seemed cheesy, b) that boat has sailed, and c) it doesn't apply to the larger problem that I am concerned with.

Note 2: To bring the question into a more simple, standard context, you might consider, at least for starters: if a door is locked with Arcane Lock with a password, will using Identify reveal the password?

Anyway, thoughts?

My thought: everything you did was fine to great.

Some players feel that it's unfair if things exist in a campaign that they can't replicate. I think they're free to feel that way, but I also feel that treating the books as an itemized list of what is possible limits the game so much there would be almost no point in playing it.

You are the DM. D&D is a game of make believe with guidelines. Making stuff up is what it's all about.

Now, I agree that identify is an incredibly powerful/useful spell. It always has been, even though in the non-WotC era of D&D it wasn't quite as potent as it is now. It's power is mitigated a little by the fact that a character has to touch the object in question to use the spell, which makes it a bit less useful for finding traps (for example). You could dance around that one by having magical traps set off by the casting of the spell; after all, any archmage or cleric or whatever powerful enough to create a magical trap would know about identify.

You touched on this issue in your post; no archmage is going to want their tricks fouled by a 1st level spell. As such, it would be wise of them to create an effect that has no command word to activate or counter. And if you want to see closer to PHB standards, perhaps the binding of the object (turning it to stone) required the cooperation of multiple wizards. Or multiple different types of spellcasters. Or a wizard and a fiend. Maybe it required the assistance of an angel and a demon, working together - who laid even greater enchantments on the object, to mask their involvement for fear of reprisal from their masters.

Keep making stuff up. It's what the game is about.

I would agree that what you've been doing is good. Although I would say naming your custom spells is a good idea, if only to confound cranky wizard players.

As for the identify spell, it is powerful for a 1st level spell but doesn't have to confound a high level spell caster who doesn't want the effects of his spells countered. You learn how to use the item, if this requires a command word I would argue that you don't necessarily learn what the command word is. Something like a wand of missiles, the creator would not want a complicated command word as it is meant to be used in combat, so guessing "Fire", "Missile", "Kill", etc until you get it right is reasonable within the casting of the identify spell.

If on the other hand the magic item is being created, or altered in this case, is meant to be protected then a more complicated command word would make sense, a flawless recital of an epic poem for example and couldn't possibly be guessed.

A similar principle applies to your arcane lock example. In a real world context, just because I've identified that the door is locked by the digilock 5000 doesn't mean I know the code.

Another work around to your problem, though the boat has sailed on this too, is the its not a command word that unlocks it but an event or key.

If there's a spell than can mask detect magic there should be a spell that can mask Identify. Because it basically *is* and 'I Win' button. Discovering the properties of your magic items isn't really a thing anymore and removes one element of discovery and wonder.

In my current game, I had the gods remove all information about a magic item so all the players got was "Information Redacted". In a world where that shouldn't happen, because by the rules there isn't a way to mask it, it's a cause of much curiosity in the party.

I'm playing in Mystara and the party found part of a Nithian artifact. The Immortals had erased all knowledge of Nithia so at least it makes sense and isn't an arbitrary "screw the party". It's an intentional "screw the party" by the world's designers to specifically have mysteries for the PCs to investigate.

Harzel said:

(I thought that should be fine, but it made the player of the Wizard cranky because he is under the impression that PHB spells are the only magical effects that [ought to] exist in the world. But I guess that is a topic for another thread.)

Click to expand...

He's wrong. If you decide that other spells exist in your world, then they do. In my own campaign magical energy can be used to create all manner of magical effects that are not listed in the PHB. But this means that the players can also learn these new spells, because I try to be consistent about how spells work. I usually rule that players are able to identify the effects of an unknown spell to a limited extend, by their knowledge of that particular school of magic.

Harzel said:

[*]The caster that transmuted the item had no intention of producing an effect that could be worked around with a 1st level spell. But as written, Identify is (arguably) pretty potent ("you learn [the object's] properties and how to use them"). In this case, I did not disclose the command word. (This caused my Wizard player to give me the look that says, "Ok, you are the DM and it's no big deal, but that seems arbitrary." That look always causes me to worry.)

Click to expand...

If the keyword is warded by more powerful magic than a simple Identify, then you can rule that he doesn't discover the keyword. Just like a Knock spell probably does not open a magical door that is locked by a far more powerful spell.

Harzel said:

[*]If I were to allow Identify to reveal the command word, how does it not become an "I win button" for many puzzle-type obstacles that are somehow magic-dependent?

Click to expand...

That is definitely something to consider carefully. You could of course design your puzzles around this problem. But at least be consistent about your ruling, and give a good reason if it doesn't work.

One option is to consider some magic to be oppositional to Identify. That magic would have a 'level' and using Identify would be similar to using Dispel Magic on it. Either you match the target's level with Identify's casting level or you roll an Intelligence test vs a DC of the target's level+10.

Warmaster Horus said:

One option is to consider some magic to be oppositional to Identify. That magic would have a 'level' and using Identify would be similar to using Dispel Magic on it. Either you match the target's level with Identify's casting level or you roll an Intelligence test vs a DC of the target's level+10.

Click to expand...

I sometimes describe what this looks like to my players, by telling them how two magical energies seem to conflict with one another, and one cancels the other out with a loud fizzle and sparks.

It seems to me that identify would tell them what kind of magic item it is, and that it was under an effect making it stone. I don't think it would reveal how to end that effect. I would have it reveal the "name" of the stone spell, but leave it to the characters to find out more about that spell and how to end it.

Harzel said:

Although I have been running a 5e game for a year now, I only recently tripped over a situation in which a player used Identify and I realized that I had not really thought through the implications of what seems to be the intent of the spell description. Previously, my players had found several magic items, cast Identify on them, learned their properties and how to use them and everyone was happy. Then they came across an item that has been turned to stone, but will revert if a command word is spoken. They discovered it was magical with Detect Magic, and then (quite reasonably) cast Identify on it. This left me with two immediate problems and one larger one.

1. The spell that had been cast on it had no name. Perhaps I should have invented one, but instead I simply described the effect: the item had been transmuted and the effect was reversible by speaking a 'mundane incantation'. (I thought that should be fine, but it made the player of the Wizard cranky because he is under the impression that PHB spells are the only magical effects that [ought to] exist in the world. But I guess that is a topic for another thread.)
2. The caster that transmuted the item had no intention of producing an effect that could be worked around with a 1st level spell. But as written, Identify is (arguably) pretty potent ("you learn [the object's] properties and how to use them"). In this case, I did not disclose the command word. (This caused my Wizard player to give me the look that says, "Ok, you are the DM and it's no big deal, but that seems arbitrary." That look always causes me to worry.)
3. If I were to allow Identify to reveal the command word, how does it not become an "I win button" for many puzzle-type obstacles that are somehow magic-dependent?

For reference, here is the description of the spell.



Note 1: I realize that I might possibly have ruled that the object is, at this point, just mundane stone and so not magical, but a) that seemed cheesy, b) that boat has sailed, and c) it doesn't apply to the larger problem that I am concerned with.

Note 2: To bring the question into a more simple, standard context, you might consider, at least for starters: if a door is locked with Arcane Lock with a password, will using Identify reveal the password?

Anyway, thoughts?

Click to expand...

If I understand properly, the item had a spell cast upon it that turned it into a rock, and this effect ends when a command word is spoken. Simple, then, you did exactly the right this. The item isn't a magical item, nor is it imbued with magical power, it is an item with a spell on it, and Identify interacts with those by letting the caster know what spells are in effect on the item but nothing else. This is exactly the same thing that Identify does with an Arcane Locked door - the door is not a magic item, it's an item with a spell on it, so Identify lets the caster know the door is subject to an Arcane Lock spell, but doesn't provide the command word.

Identify is poorly written, but the spell says that you touch an object or a creature. You then learn all the spells that currently affect it or created it. If it's a magic item or magic imbued object (something that has a magical effect not from a spell but as part of it's functioning, like, say, an alter), then you learn how to use it. Since the rock is an object, you learn the spells affecting it, which you provided. The rock is not a magic item in and of itself, so you don't learn anything else from Identify. Same with the Arcane Locked door.

Identify is powerful, but it really only cuts short what you get from just studying a magic item for an hour (well, it also lets you know if an item is cursed, which I, personally, don't let slip from the hour examination). Otherwise, it's just a more narrow and specific version of detect magic.

Harzel said:

If I were to allow Identify to reveal the command word, how does it not become an "I win button" for many puzzle-type obstacles that are somehow magic-dependent?

Click to expand...

Most puzzle-type obstacles that are somehow magic-dependent cannot be foiled with a simple command word. Whoever put the spell in place can use some other criteria, which can't be easily replicated. You could name specific individuals, or require a physical key, or simply prohibit anyone of a specific alignment. You could also cause the puzzle to immediately fail and lock if anyone casts Identify on it.

If this one spell actually worked to foil so many obstacles, then those obstacles would stop being used, and new ones would be used instead.