D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Tony Vargas

Legend
The only one hung up on numbers here is you. If you weren't, you wouldn't be so hung up on accusing me of being hung up on numbers.
"I know you are, but what am I? "

Seriously?

. If clumsy = 8, then very clumsy must = lower than 8 and since bonuses happen at even numbers, that means 6 or lower. If we then go to extremely clumsy, we have to drop to 4. Again, that's not being hung up on numbers. .
Funny, because it's a point you can't make without appealing to specific numbers, and attributing them with absolute, rather than relative meaning.

But, hey, fine if you are that hung up on numbers, how is random any better - you have no control over what numbers you get, so if you have to have that exactly 7 in something and your low rolls are 9 and 5, you're obliged to be as dissatisfied as you would be with array.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Funny, because it's a point you can't make without appealing to specific numbers, and attributing them with absolute, rather than relative meaning.

But, hey, fine if you are that hung up on numbers, how is random any better - you have no control over what numbers you get, so if you have to have that exactly 7 in something and your low rolls are 9 and 5, you're obliged to be as dissatisfied as you would be with array.
At this point it's crystal clear that you have no intention of debating in good faith, so I will leave it at this. I don't care if it's a 7, a 9 or a 5, as anyone acting in good faith would understand. Have a day.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
. Not that you couldn't come up with a back story of being naturally clumsy but still have a 20 Dex, of course.
The klutz who defeats conventional duelists with crazy luck & unpredictability, I suppose. Though a game like Hero, that lets you point-buy bonuses to attack & defense (and arbitrary luck) independent of DEX might work more intuitively ..
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Here is where you miss the point. Olympians are not born with 18 in an attribute. They have good DNA and have some sort of body type. If they train like hell (equivalent to leveling classes in D&D, then they can get up to 18s). So yes it models it quite well.

They are born with an 18. They are not born with the 20+ that Olympians have.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
They are born with an 18. They are not born with the 20+ that Olympians have.
Well, to be fussy about it, they're born with 5 3s and maybe a 5 in Con. But what they will grow up to be is (barring accident or disease or whatever) already pretty much set at that point; so one could say they're born with the potential to grow up to be an 18.

Which leads me to an idea. For Human children, maybe after the age of 2 they grow into their physical stats at one point per year until they've reached their potential - so in other words at no time can your natural strength con or dex scores be higher than your age. By 18 you're as good as you're going to get, unless you go adventuring and gain some levels. :)

Not sure how well this would work with the non-physical stats, however.

Lanefan
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
Here is where you miss the point. Olympians are not born with 18 in an attribute. They have good DNA and have some sort of body type. If they train like hell (equivalent to leveling classes in D&D, then they can get up to 18s). So yes it models it quite well.

But not as well as a system which lets a stat start at 18 and improve from there!
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
Can you show me where in 5e D&D, the general population is generated by 3d6 in order? AFAIK, the general population is given flat stats same as any other monster. There is no D&D chargen system for general populations in 5e.

Since you either missed it or forgotten it, here it is again:-

RPGs can be thought of as if they were species of life. Instead of cats, dogs, hamsters and so on, we have D&D, Runequest, Stormbringer, 13th Age, and so forth. Instead of mammals, birds, insects, and others, we have Fantasy RPGs, Sci-Fi, Superheros, and other genres.

And, just like living species, these RPGs evolve; they change over time to suit their environment, and may die out if they no longer meet the requirements of the consumers.

In the same way that you can study the DNA of life-forms to understand the past of a particular species, or see if some are closely related to others on the Tree of Life (or even previous forms of the same species), we can study RPGs in the same way. We can see which games are direct ancestors/descendants of which other games; check their metaphorical DNA.

D&D 5E is the current phenotype of D&D. Earlier versions still exist, and there is little doubt that the game will continue to evolve (unless it fails to adapt to the changing needs of the player base and just dies out).

In this context, the characteristics of D&D 5E can be traced back through its ancestor editions. We can see where certain changes happened. Like with life-forms, those characteristics either change or stay the same. If they don't change (and that change may be appearing or disappearing), then they stay the same.

Let's take Armour Class. It has evolved over the editions in that 'higher is better' now when 'lower is better' is what it used to be. But it has not changed in one crucial way: it models armour as making the wearer harder to hit, when most species games model armour as having either no impact on how easy it is to hit the wearer or makes it even easier to hit the wearer, protecting the wearer by reducing or eliminating incoming damage.

What the heck am I banging on about this for?

One of the things that has remained unchanged over the existence of every incarnation of D&D is the 3d6 bell curve as the background against which ability scores are measured. It's right there in the metaphorical DNA of 5E, even if it isn't directly outright stated in any 5E book. We can study what is written in 5E and clearly see the truth of it by studying ithe continuing impact of the 3d6 bell curve.

At its core, the general population is modeled by the 3d6 bell curve. By that, I mean that the game assumes that every NPC member of every playable race has ability scores as if they were randomly rolled, in order, on 3d6, and then any racial modifiers applied.

The population as a whole was assumed to be as if fairly rolled randomly on 3d6. As players, any PC we make is conceptually assumed to be one of that population. It's as if we looked at the population of the game world and said, "I want to play that one!"

Although conceptually we are choosing to play an existing person, and that person's ability scores are on that bell curve, in order to actually do that then the DM would have to randomly generate ability scores on 3d6 in order for every single person in the world! The players can then choose which one's to play, presumably playing the one's whose ability scores were on the high side. In this theoretical bell curve population, around half will have higher than average stats and half will have lower than average, and it's likely that the people who are most likely to be adventurers are also most likely to have higher than average ability scores.

Now, that's a lot of work to end up with 4-6 PCs! So Gary Gygax realised that you can approximate this concept without the DM needing to generate 7 billion NPC character sheets! The players can roll stats themselves, using one of various methods that would skew the 3d6 bell curve to get higher than the average results for PCs as compared to that unmodified bell curve.

But the crucial thing to remember is that whether or not you are using '3d6 twelve times arrange any six to suit' or '4d6k3 six time arrange to suit' or later point-buy or array, every single resulting PC is conceptually one of the population that (probably) got lucky on that 3d6 bell curve. Every single PC, no matter how they are actually generated at that table, is conceptually one of that population that was generated on that 3d6 bell curve.

The result is not only that any method must be within 3-18 for any stat (before racial modifiers), but that every possible combination of 3d6 six times is a valid character concept. In any population, any combination of six stats of 3-18 (before racial) is a possible PC, even if it is unlikely. Six 18s would be very unlikely, as would six 3s, but each is a possible result of 3d6 six times and therefore a possible person and a possible PC concept.

Six 18s (or six 3s) would be very unlikely, and we know exactly how unlikely. Six 10s is also unlikely, although a lot more likely than six 18s or six 3s! The chances of six 18s or six threes are 216 to the power 6 (or about 1 in 5 x 10 to the 74th power, if my calculator is to be believed). However, how many times the DM has to generate an NPC before he actually rolls those six 18s may be fewer or greater than that mathematical expectation.

The point of all this is that the valid idea space of any (pre-racial) set of ability scores remains any combination of 3-18 six times. Any method that takes any of those possibilities away is also taking away valid concepts attached to those scores. Any method that limits your starting pre-racial scores to (for example) between 8 and 15 has taken away every concept that included a score of less than 8 and/or more than 15. Such a method therefore certainly removes valid character concepts. In comparison, any method which allows any result of 3-18 in any score (4d6k3, for example) has not taken any concept away.

Therefore, a statement like 'this method lets me play any concept I want' can only be objectively true if that method allows any combination of 3-18 for six scores to be generated by that method.

Point-buy does not allow that. Rolling does.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Can you show me where in 5e D&D, the general population is generated by 3d6 in order? AFAIK, the general population is given flat stats same as any other monster. There is no D&D chargen system for general populations in 5e.

The flat numbers are not the stats for the general population of anything. They are simply the average numbers for the stat range of that creature, or do you think that all humans outside of PCs are stuck with straight 10's? Further, page 89 of the DMG says that you don't need to roll stats for NPCs. Not you don't roll stats, or you can't roll stats, or their stats are stuck at 10, but simply that you don't need to roll them and can just pick the abilities that are above or below average. That line confirms that the flat 10's are merely an average and not the stats for the general population.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The klutz who defeats conventional duelists with crazy luck & unpredictability, I suppose. Though a game like Hero, that lets you point-buy bonuses to attack & defense (and arbitrary luck) independent of DEX might work more intuitively ..
Pretty much. The main argument I made is that a "stat" doesn't have to be purely natural ability, it can be considered the result of both natural ability and intrinsic effects (like a constant circumstance bonus). It got pushback from those who consider anything not within the physical confines of the character to be strictly within the DM's purview.
 

Remove ads

Top