D&D 1E Revised and rebalanced dragons for 1e AD&D

Celebrim said:

a) Small dragons have the same 'to hit', damage, AC, and XP award (and technically length!) of the larger ones. Consequently, as dragons get larger and older they on the whole get relatively less fearsome, the opposite of what would be desirable.

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Small dragons (e.g. 9HD for red dragons) have a lower "to hit" chance than huge dragons. In general, given the typical dragon hit dice ranges (blocks of three), since the "to hit" table increases by blocks of two hit dice, there's always a difference between the different dragon sizes. So, average and huge red dragons have the same "to hit", which is higher than the small's one.
XP awards also depend not only on hit dice, but also on actual hit points. So a very young, small red dragon will be worth a lot less XPs than a small, ancient red.

By the way, have you seen the expanded rules for 1e dragons in the 1e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting? (the grey box) They give dragons two additional age categories, an increased number of attacks, and the possibility to "aggregate" and "split" the total damage potential of the breath weapon.

rabindranath72 said:

Small dragons (e.g. 9HD for red dragons) have a lower "to hit" chance than huge dragons.

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That's true, but it's not really relevant to what I was trying to communicate.

What I was trying to communicate is that a newly hatched average sized red dragon with 10 hit points is supposedly by virtue of being much younger than an ancient dragon with 80 hit points, also a much smaller dragon. But by the normal rules this newly hatched dragon still attacks as a 10HD monster, still has a 6d6 damage bite, and still is technically 42' long (or however long reds are supposed to be normally) because 'young' and 'ancient' dragons by the normal rules share the same stat block. This lack of uniform scaling becomes very important when you are trying to pick a dragon to be a good challenge to a 1e party. If you pick a young dragon with low hit points and consequently a small breath weapon, you are getting a monster that delivers outsized bite damage and is very difficult for the party to hit. But once the party gets high enough level to deal with larger breath weapons, the damage from the physical attacks become trivial and the same dragon is trivially easy to hit. This leads to a 'glass cannon' syndrome where the fight is basically over by the initiative roll and no really interesting cinematic combat can occur.

In my opinion, good combats tend to go 3-5 rounds. Shorter ones involve little decision making and are too abstract to visualize in any way that is fun, and longer ones tend to drag. These dragons are intended to survive at least 3-5 rounds versus even large well equipped parties of an appropriate level, while during that time achieving a middle ground between dealing overwhelming amounts of damage and doing enough damage to be threatening. One thing you might note is that I've extended the monster level table up above X, to suggest monsters that are much more potent than even name level parties can easily face. The Huge Great Wyrm Red Dragon is for example listed by me as monster level XVIII, which suggests you shouldn't be fighting one of these at all at merely 10th level and would need to be 15th level or higher or otherwise be a very large party (perhaps 12 characters) to consider this anything like a fair fight. This Tiamat, with more hit points than Zeus, is monster level XXIII, suggesting you need a true end game party to face her. And I dare say she's a more interesting fight than '100 liches' or other 'Bloodstone' style encounters, and indeed a far more interesting foe than the version of Tiamat that appears in that series.

Normally, with monsters with any sort of special abilities, the value of XP from hit points is a relatively small percentage of the total XP. You can see I'm aware of how 1e XP works by examining "Table 4: XP Value of Chromatic Dragons by Age and Species", and you should note that if it wasn't for the fact that I'm giving my version of dragons much more 'bonus hitpoints' than is usual with 1e AD&D design that the amount of XP from the hit points would be rather small. Only because I'm doing things like HD like '10+50 HD' that you otherwise only see with 1e Daemons, do the XP bonus from hit points get relatively significant.

By the way, have you seen the expanded rules for 1e dragons in the 1e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting? (the grey box) They give dragons two additional age categories, an increased number of attacks, and the possibility to "aggregate" and "split" the total damage potential of the breath weapon.

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I'm aware of all the 1e rules for dragons, including the 1e FR rules and those published on several occasions in Dragon magazine. I was referencing rules such as the FR rules when I wrote, "That dragons were broken was nothing new to myself or the community at the time, but looking back it's easy to see that while many knew that dragons for all the elegance of their design in some areas weren't working, no one seemed to really be able to put their finger on why. Many valiant efforts were attempted over the years, but in retrospect none quite worked right because they set about fixing the wrong problems."

The FR rules are an example of good intentioned fixes that are in fact fixing the wrong problems and thus making the actual problems worse. Upping the number of attacks per round just made the dragon even more of a glass cannon, and splitting the breathe weapon up made sense only if the dragon was engaged with 0th level warriors and had nothing to do with the more pressing problem of dragons engaged with player characters. The only thing I've really kept as a nod to the FR or Dragon magazine rules from that era is the 10 age categories, as opposed to the 8 of early 1e era dragons or the 12 of 2e era dragons. I figure 10 is enough, and it makes some of the math a bit easier. You could go to 12 age categories if you wanted, and you'd get even bigger nastier dragons, but as my examples show I'd prefer to create end game content using a slightly different approach.

Questions relating to balance:

So I realize the very idea of balance sounds weird and antithetical to the usual approach of 1e AD&D, but lack of balance was also a repeated problem in my 1e AD&D play and the problem was that as a teenage DM I just didn't have the tools to address the issue.

My question is simple. If you are playing 1e AD&D or some OSR clone, would the above dragons seem balanced at appropriate times to the abilities of your party.

#1) My biggest concern is that I've over compensated for the dragons vulnerability to magic by making their magic resistance too good. Keep in mind that 1e Magic Resistance is applied to an 11th level caster, and it's +/-5% for being above or below that level. For a party of the expected level, this is the expected level of effective magic resistance for different dragons:


I already nerfed white and black dragon magic resistance a bit, because otherwise M-U's would be pretty useless facing white or black dragons at a point where such dragons could otherwise legitimately threaten the party. Even so, dragons as described above are nearly immune to magic until the party is well above the expected level. What is a reasonable value for magic resistance, keeping in mind the goal that parties should not be able to 'cheese' a dragon by applying some single spell as a 'win button'.

#2) Is the expected damage per round from physical attacks reasonable? This is a bit harder to calculate because different sizes of dragons can 'focus fire' to different degrees, but keep in mind that I'm trying to keep dragons alive 3-5 rounds. So ignoring area of effect damage from trample and breath weapons, are the dragons doing enough damage to threaten a party over that period so that if/when the dragon goes down everyone breathes a big sigh of relief and talks about how that was getting tense?

#3) Are the defenses enough to keep the dragon alive (or at least, any dragon bigger than a hatchling) for the 3-5 rounds I'm theory crafting? I'm assuming a reasonably well equipped, moderately large (6-8 PCs) party with access to the Unearthed Arcana rules. Treasure and ability score assumptions of course vary widely between campaigns, but assume something appropriate to your campaign and power scale.

#4) Is something like this welcome? Would you use something like this? Is it easy to use and understand in the current format? What did I get wrong?

bah, double post bug

Table #: Hit Dice by Metallic Dragon Species and Age


General Abilities and Defenses of Metallic Dragons

In almost all physical respects, metallic dragons are identical to their chromatic cousins. They have the same defenses, attacks, and special capabilities that are general to all dragons. They differ only markedly in social skills and general disposition, for where the chromatic dragons are uniformly evil and destructive the metallic dragons are generally benevolent and benign. Except for the rare case of a metallic dragon being orphaned, all metallic dragons acquire the power of speech shortly after being hatched. Owing to their generally more social nature and greater self-control, the wisdom and charisma of a metallic dragon is generally one half of its intelligence plus 2d6 (maximum 25). Otherwise, the same abilities may be assumed.

Special Attacks

Metallic dragons share all the special attacks common to dragons and their chromatic kin.

Like their chromatic kin, metallic dragons have breath weapons. Unlike chromatic dragons, metallic dragons are usually capable of breathing forth one of several kinds of breath weapons. When enraged, metallic dragons breathe forth a destructive breath weapon similar in almost all respects to their chromatic kin, but they are also capable when in doubt or when the threat is less severe of breathing for a cloud of incapacitating magical gas which they will use when lethal force is not obviously justified.

The sorts of breathe weapons depend on species as follows:

Brass: Either a Line of Fire doing 1d8 damage/age category. The line is 1 ½” long per age category and is ½” wide. Or a cone of sleep gas that is 1" long per age category and 1/4 as wide at it's termination as it is long.
Copper: Either a Line of Acid doing 1d8 damage/age category. The line is 1 ½” long per age category and is ½” wide. Or a cloud of slowing gas (in effect as the spell) which is 3/4" long per age category and 2/3rds as wide and high as it is long (round fractions generally upward). Thus a young adult breathes a cloud roughly 3" long and 2" wide, while an ancient copper dragon breathes one 6" long and 4" wide and high.
Bronze: Either a Line of Electricity doing 1d8 damage/age category. The line is 2” long per age category and is ½” wide. Or else a cloud of replusion gas (as the spell) which is 3/4" long per age category and 2/3rds as wide and high as it is long (round fractions generally upward).
Silver: Either a Cone of Cold doing 1d8 damage/age category. The cone is 1” long per age category and has a base half as wide as it is long. Or a cloud of paralyzing gas which is 1" long per age category, and 3/4's as wide and high as it is long.
Gold: Either Cone of Fire doing 1d8 damage/age category. The cone is 1” long per age category and has a base half as wide as it is long. Or else a cloud of weakness gas which is 1" long per age category, and 3/4's as wide and high as it is long and those that fail their saves are reduced to 3 strength for a number of turns equal to the dragons age category, losing all advantages of strength and receiving -3 to hit probability and -1 damage adjustment on all attacks.

When damage is indicated a saving throw versus breath weapons reduces damage to one half. In all other cases the effect is negated by a successful save versus breath weapons. As with chromatic dragons, the huge examples of their race receive +1 damage per die on their breath weapon attacks, and saving throws versus their breath weapons are at a -2 penalty, while the breath weapons of small examples are made at a +1 bonus.

Metallic Dragon Behavior
Where chromatic dragons are aggressive creatures, metallic dragons are generally secretive and retiring creatures that eschew violence and prefer to lair in pristine and remote places far from any disturbances. They are lovers of places of natural beauty, and travel far and wide before finding a hidden natural wonder which will provide the suitable habitat for a lair. Unlike chromatic dragons, metallic dragons have a certain civilized air about them, and will prefer to lair in spaces which have been carved out in likeness not unlike a palace of a mortal lord with several rooms suited to various purposes - such as receiving guests, dining, research, hobbies, and the like. The older and grander the dragon, the more elegant, refined, and complex they design their dwelling place. Like all dragons, metallic dragons are great hoarders of wealth, but they do not desire it in disorganized mounds to be beds alone, nor do they prize items solely for their value. Rather, metallic dragons consider themselves refined collectors, and in addition to hording coins, gems, and other obviously valuable items, each considers themselves a specialist in some exotic item which it aspires to have the finest possible collection there of. These objects are varied and eccentric and could include such things as exotic plants, paintings, teas, wines, porcelain vases, glassware, spoons, books, necklaces, masks, or even wooden chairs, children's toys or ladies handbags.

The numbers of metallic dragons in the world were never great, and are presently diminished for they are both frequently distrusted and misunderstood by mortal races, and also the sworn foes of the chromatic dragons who will certainly seek to destroy any smaller metallic dragon that they encounter. No more than a few dozen of each species likely still dwells in the world, though greater numbers have no doubt sought sanctuary in the wild spaces of the planes. However, unlike their chromatic kin, metallic dragons are quite social creatures, and enjoy the company of others of their kind and those few mortal individuals with sufficient wit, lore, and gracious manner to entertain them. They often sojourn for long periods with relatives, and even form mated pairs who will dwell together companionably for extended periods. Likewise, the metallic dragons are excellent and attentive parents, wholly uneager to drive their offspring from the nest. It is therefore possible to find younger dragons dwelling with their parents up until the onset of young adulthood, when the urge to found a lair and collection of their own becomes overwhelming. Biologically, reproduction is much the same as it is with chromatic dragons, however the scarcity of clutches eggs generally owes not to well-placed fear of any potential mate, but simply the keen desire to find a congenial and appropriate mate and suitable quarters for safely rearing a family of young, as well as the often great distances that lay between any two metallic dragons which might otherwise form a family.

Both males and females are ferocious and fearless in protection of their offspring, gaining a +1 bonus to hit and doing +2 damage with attacks.

Quite unlike chromatic dragons, the presence of a metallic dragon is generally a boon to the surrounding ecosystem, which they will tend as a patient and loving gardener. Whatever natural beauty is present will be subtly enhanced, and whatever life can survive in even the inhospitable regions they may dwell will flourish. The metallic dragon derives most of its nourishment from magical auras in the land, and from the healing rays of the sun, and as such is not prone to the hunger induced mindlessness which afflicts chromatic dragons. They may dine on meat and drink as refreshment and for pleasure, but they may also lie beneath the sun and stars for many years, taking in the beauty and growing strong from it as a plant flourishes in a suitable climate. Game is killed and eaten raw in dragon fashion on occasion, but only as a gamewarden may seek to improve the herd by taking the old and sick or to prevent overpopulation upsetting the balance.

Weaknesses of Metallic Dragons
Despite their benevolence, metallic dragons are still very draconic in their nature. They are haughty, vain, imperious creatures that are quick to take offense at perceived slights and very slow to forget or to forgive. Like their chromatic kin, they are prone to being boastful and vain-glorious, and delight in showing off their magnificence and power. As with less noble dragons, they can be induced to delay or otherwise make less than perfect judgments with suitably pretty flattery. Like all dragons, they can be overcome with single minded greed, especially in the case of metallic dragons as it pertains to their collections. Unlike their chromatic kin, they tend to be wise enough to recognize that these traits are in fact vices, though such recognition does not universally lead to self-control or self-chastening, much less humble contrition.

Metallic dragons think of themselves as contemplative creatures. They would not admit to themselves how indolent they tend to be despite there being little observable difference from being contemplative and lazy. Owing to the need to protect their young and their treasure, and the fact that they generally do prefer quiet and solitude most of the time, they tend to lair far from habitation and keep the location of their lairs with the strictest secrecy. Those creatures that win their good graces must swear to strictly maintain this secrecy regarding the location of and means of entrance to their lair, and not abuse the good dragon's tolerance by bring uninvited guests into their confidence - on penalty of the dragon's displeasure. A metallic dragon is not above frightening away any generally good aligned beings that happen to settle too near to it with acts of pretend ferocity (and no small amount of genuine annoyance), and will swiftly dispatch any settlers that it suspects of less benevolent disposition.

Like other dragons, metallic dragons spend large portions of their life in state of half-sleep, which invariably falls into true insensible slumber some of the time – during which time they are vulnerable to stealthy attack. The chance that a dragon in its lair will be slumbering is 10% per age category, to a maximum of 99% for great wyrms. However, the chance that this slumber does not render the dragon unconscious and insensible is the same, so that though an adult dragon in its lair is slumbering 50% of the time, in 50% of these cases it is fully aware of its surroundings and quite capable of noting the approach of all but the stealthiest creature. An ancient dragon slumbers in its lair 80% of the time, but likewise 80% of the time it slumbers it is in a state of but half-sleep or torpor. Only the most lore-wise will be able to recognize the difference by subtle differences in its breathing. Even a sleeping dragon though will be awakened by any loud sound in its vicinity.

Metallic dragons may be subdued through the same means as chromatic dragons, however even if subdued a metallic dragon cannot be compelled to act in a way it will find dishonorable, and will overcome any fear of death or punishment if put in a position where it must knowingly kill innocents.

Dragon Treasure
Dragon hatchlings and very young dragons generally have not yet developed hordes of their own nor settled into a long term lair. Young dragons will have only 25% of the indicated treasure, while young adult dragons will have 50% of the indicated treasure, and adult dragons 75%. Old dragons have 100% of the normal treasure, while venerable dragons will have 150%, ancient dragons 200%, wyrms 250%, and the legendary hordes of great wryms will be a full 300% of the normal treasure type.

Metallic Dragon Numbers and Frequency
Metallic dragons are equally distributed between males and female. The age of the metallic dragon can be determined by the following table.


Whenever a metallic dragon is encountered in their lair which is at least an adult, there is a 10% chance they have a companion. Roll again to determine age of the companion, and if the result is at least an adult, then 95% of the time it is a mate of the opposite sex. In all other cases it is a visiting relative of some other sort.

If a mated pair is present in a lair, there is a chance they have eggs or young. The chance of either is present is 1% per age category of the female. If a brood is present, they will be eggs 20% per of the time, hatchlings 40% of the time, and older offspring 40% of the time. A female metallic dragon will normally lay a clutch of 1d4 eggs per age category (minimum 4d4). Owing to the joint attentive care of both parents, all eggs normally hatch into healthy offspring, though if one parent is missing for an extended period only but 90% of the eggs will successfully hatch. Hatchlings are affectionate toward other members of their brood and form lasting bonds. However, eventually wanderlust and the innate desire for long periods of solitude sets in, and the hatchlings will spend longer and longer periods away from the lair and parental care. Thus but 80% of hatchlings will be present in the creche at any given time after the first few years. If older offspring are indicated, there is an equal chance of 2d4 very young offspring, or 1d6 young offspring still remaining with their parents. Young adults or older will only be present as temporary companions on a comparatively short duration visit (no more than a few months or perhaps a year) unless they are in fact a mate. Although these clutches can produce quite large broods, they are typically spaced quite far apart - often by a century or more - and this explains the rarity of the metallic species.

Variant Metallic Dragons
Less variance is found amongst the metallic dragons compared to their monstrous cousins, but some differences between individuals may be noted.

Size of Dragons: Statistics given are for dragons of average size. About 20% of dragons of a particular race are smaller than their fellows. Such dragons use the HD and attack damage of dragons typical of the next smaller race of the same age category, and saves versus their breath weapon attacks are at a +1 bonus. For example, a small adult green dragon has the HD and attack damage from its natural weapons of an adult black dragon. About 10% of dragons of a particular race are much larger than their fellows. These huge dragons use the HD and attack damage of dragons of the next larger race, receive +1 damage per die on their breath weapon attacks, and saving throws versus their breath weapons are at a -2 penalty.

Flameless Brass: Some 20% of brass dragons belong to a lineage that has lost completely the power to breathe flame, and thus lacks the Line of Flame breath weapon. Instead, these dragons have acquired a second non-lethal power, that of a Cloud of Fear (effects as the wand). This cloud is 1" long per age category, and 3/4's as wide and high as it is long.

Chlorine Golds: In the opposite direction, some 20% of gold dragons belong to a lineage that has lost completely the power to produce non-lethal gas, and rather than a cloud of weakness produce a cloud of corrosive chlorine gas which is identical in all respects to the breath weapon of a green dragon. Acid breathing gold dragons gain resistance to acid damage appropriate to a dragon which breathes acid.

Serpentine Dragons: Although young dragons are supple enough to curl their bodies and tails around a foe, most dragons as they age become too thick and inflexible to continue to employ this attack. However, metallic dragons are particular serpentine and flexible, and so some 40% retain this ability until they reach 10HD, while a full 20% retain this ability even until reaching 15HD.

Chosen of Bahumut: Any metallic dragon of at least 16 WIS has a chance equal to 1/2 of its HD of having been chosen as a representative of their chief Bahumut. These creatures have additional spell-casting power as a good aligned cleric of 1/2 of their HD, to a maximum of 9th level of ability.

Psionic Metallic Dragons: All metallic dragon species occasionally produce individuals with psionic ability. The chances and range of powers observed is the same as for PC's of equivalent ability scores, save that metallic dragons receive a bonus of 1d10 additional psionic ability points per age category that they have attained.

Metallic Dragon Species

Brass Dragon
Alignment:Chaotic Good
Treasure Type: H,I
A young brass dragon has scales of a dark brown color, which gradually lightens and brighten with age until it becomes a silvery yellow with depths of green. There eyes are faintly radiant azure orbs with flecks of white. The voice of a brass dragon is very rich, warm, and musical, and their breath smells of spice and charred wood, like burned incense or the remains of campfire made from some particularly aromatic wood.
Brass dragons dwell exclusively in the arid wastes, preferring to lair atop solitary stone spires or outcroppings surrounded by seemingly endless ergs, or in hidden oasis lost to the knowledge of mortal races. They have a great love for sunrises, sunsets, clear nights filled with stars, and the shimmering air rising above glaring sands or salt pans. Brass dragons are capable of burrowing into loose sand or similar material at the rate of 1" per round, and lying beneath this protective canopy for long periods. From such a position, they may surprise anything that strays near 4 times in 6. Despite or perhaps because of the penchant for lonely lairs in inhospitable lands, brass dragons are the most welcoming of the metallic dragons with respect to visitors, and most likely to engage on friendly terms with any courteous traveler that has sought the out or stumbled upon them. They have an especial fondness for the company of the more noble sorts of Jann and for well spoken merchants and travelers from afar. Brass dragons have a great talent for languages, and are capable of learning twice the usual number of languages indicated by their intelligence. They have a great love of new words and of talk in general, and will regale visitors for hours or even days with tales, stories, and remanences about past deeds. Once allowed to have their say, and if the listener has been patient, they are eager to here like news and tales laid out well, and can be impressed by the excellence with which a traveler spins a tale, especially one that is long in the telling but filled with suspense. Brass dragons are particularly greedy beasts, especially for a normally noble creature, and once they are allowed to bring up their collection on their own, it becomes safe to bargain with them - for brass dragons delight in haggling and barter and pride themselves on the shrewdness of their negotiation. A brass dragon will see no conflict in entering into a bargain that is entirely to its advantage, provided it adheres to the strict letter of its word and said nothing false, nor will it conversely fail to honor a bargain in which it was tricked to entering by the same means. Because brass dragons are so shrewd, they are difficult to best in such exchanges, and from them comes the greater portion of its wealth.
Brass dragons have a natural power to kindle hope and drive away darkness. In addition to their normal spell use, a brass dragon may exercise the following powers: remove fear, as the spell save that it effects all creatures in a 4"x4" area, and create light as the spell. Further, if the brass dragon has been exposed to the rays of the sun within the last 24 hours, the light it produces will be the same in all regards as natural sunlight, and will effect such creatures which cannot withstand the rays of the sun with like regard. A brass dragon may use each once per day for each age category it has attained. A brass dragon which as attained at least ancient age, may once per day cure pestilence, as the spell cure disease except effecting up to 10 persons per age category the brass dragon has attained provided that they are all within 15" of each other, and any unattended disease source within this area will be cleansed and made safe, as by purify food and water or cure disease as applicable. Minor parasites such as lice or fleas or even rot grubs in this area of effect will desiccate and wither. A wyrm brass dragon may exercise this power twice per day, and one which has reach great wyrm status may do so three times per day. The caster level of these abilities will be the same as the dragon's hit dice.

Copper Dragon
Alignment:Chaotic Good
Treasure Type: H, I, R
Copper dragons are born a dull reddish color, not unlike sandstone, but their scales gradually brighten with age to bright pinkish hue which reflects light. A young copper dragon may be easily mistaken for a red dragon by all but the most lorewise observer. The eyes of copper dragons are the rich green of gem grade malachite. The breath of a copper dragon smells of loam, baked breads, and citrus, with the acidic notes becoming dominate and overpowering when their mood is darkened.
Copper dragons are good humored beasts that delight in mischief, japes, practical jokes, and pleasant surprises. They are never malicious in their humor, and their japes are cruel only to the cruel - never more than the lightest of justice on those that deserve ridicule and chastisement. To the kind-hearted and humble, they delight in being secret benefactors and they are the most generous of the good dragons - regretting only slightly parting with a bauble if doing so brings weal and delight in others. In many ways, they are the least draconic of the metallic creatures, suffering less from the usual vices of vanity and greed. However, things can be pushed too far, and they are very slow to forgive anyone that they feel has misused them or taken advantage of their good humor. Copper dragons flee battle when at all possible, and fight only as a last resort to defend their lairs, offspring, or the helpless and innocent. For companions, they prefer those with which they can exchange a joke, and with which they can share a good belly laugh.
Copper dragons make their lairs in a variety of climates, but always in rocky badlands, canyonlands, outcroppings of karst, and in igneous provinces of flood basalt. They prefer arid or semi-arid climes to those that are wet, for they enjoy the beauty of exposed stone, and their lairs are always in subterranean places which showcase polished stone or the majesty and diversity of natural cave formations. Alone of the metallic dragons, copper dragons have humors which are when concentrated detrimental to life and so form a sort of desolation around their lair from the inevitable effluent - though not one as foul, reeking, or large as those of chromatic dragons - and this may also in part explain their fondness for areas relatively devoid of vegetation when positioning a permanent lair.
Copper dragons have powers of creativity and regeneration. A copper dragon of any age may once per day per age category employ the spell material to create any simple material that they desire, and likewise once per day per age category they may employ the spell mending.
Once per day, a copper dragon of at least adult age may create food and wine, as the spell create food and water save that the results are the most delicious sorts of delicacies and most delectable viands, sufficient to feed 10 human sized creatures per HD of the copper dragon. As with the spell create food and water, this bounty must be consumed within 24 hours or the feast will spoil, the wine turn to a foul vinegar, etc. Upon obtaining ancient age, the effects of consuming this food over the course of an hour is exactly the same as that of a heroes feast. Further, a copper dragon of at least ancient age may once per day employ the power of regeneration as the 7th level clerical spell regenerate. Those who have received this gift describe the healing as a very painful process, but whether this is an inevitable consequence of the process, a practical joke of some sort, or a lesson by the dragon intended to discourage a repeat performance cannot be said. A copper dragon of wrym age may perform the feat twice per day, and those of great wrym status three times per day. All spells have a caster level equal to the HD of the dragon.

Bronze Dragon
Alignment:Lawful Good
Treasure Type: H, I, R, S
The scales of a young bronze dragon are a sort of dull orange color, but as the dragon ages they become both darker and more reflective, until they become a deep metallic brown. The eyes of a bronze dragon are a shining pale green, and their breath smells of sea foam and summer rain.
Bronze dragons are water-loving creatures that make their lairs in remote and untamed regions, preferring sea-side cliffs, sea caves or deep beneath tropical lagoons or coral atolls. More rarely they lair near large freshwater bodies or great rivers, especially those that are particularly torrid and have great cascades. They have a swim speed of 9", and can hold their breath for one turn per age category and three times as long if they remain motionless and generally torpid. Bronze dragons are great lovers of nature in all its violent spectacle, delighting in storms, thunder, crashing waves and abundant, colorful, and vibrant living things. With respect to mortal visitors, they are very loathe to reveal their presence, but often observe mortal affairs secretly using their shape-changing powers described below.
Of all the metallic dragons, bronze dragons are the most temperamental, quick to take offense, and prone to outbursts of violence. They do not shun a fight with those that provoke it, and those within their territory which engage in overtly evil acts or any act of wanton destruction are most likely to find cause to regret it. The aid a bronze dragon provides is most likely to be done in secret, while it's vengeance is likely to be performed openly and with great wrath. They do not delight in those that would meddle in their affairs, or which would seek their aid or council. They prefer to be inscrutable and can seem harsh even when doing good or their disposition is favorable. They are covetous creatures always seeking advantage for themselves, who may aid the survivors of a shipwreck, but fully expect to claim its cargo as salvage. Alone of the metallic dragons, they are merely usually good rather than always good, and some bronze dragons have truly inscrutable motives and deviant morality compared to their kindred. Although lawful good is dominate, every other alignment but evil is known to occur, and one notable bronze of great age and apparent wisdom is so aberrant as to serve the Slaad Lord Yrolg for reasons known only to the creature. Even other metallic dragons tend to shun bronze dragons as strange, taciturn, prideful and dour creatures with inflexible notions regarding honor and justice - notions which all too often are based on private codes and only discovered after the dragon has been offended. Of the few companions which they allow into their private lives, bronze dragons prefer those with great dignity, elegant manners, and scrupulous codes of honor - most especially those whose notions of honor most closely resemble their own (that is, they share alignment).
When a bronze dragon is encountered, 80% will be Lawful Good. The remaining 20% have alignment determined as follows: (1,2) Lawful Neutral, (3) Neutral Good, (4) Chaotic Good, (5) Neutral, (6) Chaotic Neutral. No bronze dragon, however wise, which is not good is ever chosen by Bahumet as a representative. However, 20% of spell-casting Bronze dragons which are neutral in some component of their alignment, employ druidic magic rather than M-U spells, and of these 20% are able to cast spells both as druids and M-U with level equal to 1/2 of their HD.
Bronze dragons have powers of energy and transformation. All bronze dragons are able to change into animal form, one per day per age category, exactly as a druid, with the exception that the size of the animal so assumed must not be smaller than an eagle or small dog, nor larger than their own size. However, since bronze dragons may reach a very large size, older bronze dragons may - and often do - assume the form of elephants or whales. Most often a bronze dragon assumes the form of some animal so as to go about its affairs without attracting attention to itself. It will always first observe and interact with any mortals in its territory in animal form, first watching inconspicuously from afar and then perhaps if it wishes to offer covert aid or learn more about the nature of the trespassers performing antics nearer by. The forms which it may assume are extremely varied, but when interacting it prefers intelligent, colorful or ostentatious creatures like parrots, porpoises, sea eagles, wild dogs, elephants or whales. Any attempt to penetrate this disguise, or overt sign that the person suspects the animal of being a bronze dragon, will cause all further aid to be withdrawn. Any attack on a bronze dragon when in animal form will not be lightly forgiven, and is generally responded to immediately with great ferocity. In addition using these shape changing powers for disguise, a bronze dragon may also transform into a fish or other aquatic creature, so as to journey submerged in comfort.
In addition to its spellcasting powers, a bronze dragon may cast aid and dispel magic once per day each per age category of the dragon. A bronze dragon of at least ancient age may as well cast polymorph any object once per day, and that has attained the age of wrym or great wrym may do so two or three times per day respectively. All special powers have a caster level equal to the HD of the bronze dragon.

Silver Dragon
Alignment:Neutral Good
Treasure Type: H, I, R, S, T
The scales of a young silver dragon are a very pale grey mottled with pale blue and white. They may be easily mistaken for a white chromatic dragon by this less lore wise, however it is rare in the extreme for a silver dragon to allow itself to be observed in its natural form for they are masters of shape-changing magic. As a silver dragon ages, its scales become more uniform and reflect more and more light, until the shimmer with the radiance of finely polished silver. The eyes of a silver dragon are opaline, and its breath smells of flowers and subtle perfumes.
Of all the metallic dragons, silver dragons are the gentlest, most social, and most fond of mortal company. Silver dragons often spend many years of their life changed into the form of an elf, human, or other mortal creature, going about with mortals, learning about them and from them, and aiding them covertly in various small ways. Young silver dragons are encouraged by their parents to undertake these sabbaticals in their youth before taking a mate. Elven form is most usual, since it provides the greatest cover for the long lives of the dragon, and because silver dragons have an especial fondness for elves with their love of artistry, song, nature, and demeanor usually closely akin to the silver dragon own companionate and good-hearted nature. However, many silver dragons will take other forms, leaving and going to a distant place when anyone begins to suspect there is something is unusual about them or guesses at their true nature.
Silver dragons make their lairs atop the most inaccessible snow capped peaks. Since they often stay away from their lairs for long periods, they prefer lairs with hidden entrances accessible only by powerful fliers. If the entrance is often wrapped in clouds and racked with ice storms, then so much the better. The inner chambers of their lairs are decorated with the most exquisite taste and elegance, for the silver dragon uses part of its time among mortals to master arts like painting and sculpture - pretending to be a young apprentice seeking out a master. When the silver dragon is away from its lair, it arranges it to be guarded and protected by the most powerful wards and dangerous traps that it can devise. For all their gentleness, the silver dragon is a dragon, and still desires to protect its horded wealth.
There are few good hearted beings that a silver dragon does not enjoy the companionship of, but only rare being will gain their confidence or be allowed to view the wonders of their lair. Silver dragons admire valorous and compassionate beings, particular those which are lovers and makers of beautiful things. The have some friends among the sylph and the djinn and other good hearted powers of the air, and above all other metallic dragons love the company of others of their kind. Whenever an adult or older silver dragon is not in their lair, there is an 90% chance some trusted creature has been left as a sworn guardian of the treasure until the silver dragon returns. There are likely to be: 1) 1d4 sylph 2) 1 djinn, 3) 1d2 lillend, 4) 1 coatl.
Once per day per age category, silver dragons may shape change into the form of any humanoid as the spell polymorph self. They generally use this power only to be inconspicuous and avoid attracting attention. They will not assume the face of an a humanoid for the purpose of deception or trickery except under the most dire circumstances, such as to save the life of an innocent.
Silver dragons have powers of comfort and healing. A silver dragon may cast mass sanctuary by word or touch or protection from evil, 10' radius, once per day each per age category it has attained. The power of mass sanctuary works as the spell sanctuary save it may effect up to 4 targets may be effected per age category of the dragon which are within 4" of the dragon. When casting protection from evil, 10' radius the radius of effect increases by 10' per age category of the silver dragon up to a maximum of a 100' radius. Upon obtaining ancient age, a silver dragon may cast mass heal other by word or touch, once per day, which works in all respects as the spell heal save that it effects one target per age category of the silver dragon and the caster may not target themselves. Upon attaining the status of a wyrm, the silver dragon may cast mass heal other twice per day, and silver dragon great wryms may do so three times per day. Caster level of spell powers is the same as the HD of the silver dragon. A silver dragon of any age, if moved to great sorrow, may shed tears which act in all regards as a potion of healing if they fall upon someone that is injured or are collected. This will not be done lightly, but only if an innocent which has become dear to the silver dragon has suffered harm or the silver dragon otherwise witnesses something which causes great sorrow, and in any event no more than seven such tears may be collected in a day.

Gold Dragon
Alignment:Lawful Good
Treasure Type: H, I, Q, P, R, S, T
Gold dragon young are born with shiny yellow scales which gradually become more and more reflective until they are the color of purest gold. The eyes also are golden. The breath of the gold dragon smells of sandalwood smoke and rare incense. Gold dragons dwell in remote areas in all climates, but always in places of great natural grandeur and always in palaces made of stone with interiors decorated in the most elaborate fashion. When dealing with mortal visitors, they almost never reveal their true form, but take the guise of wealthy mortal lords, high ranking monks, or retired merchants of great wealth.
Gold dragons are the wisest, most farsighted, and most powerful of their kind. Unfortunately they are also exceedingly rare, with many noble dragons having been slain over the centuries by chromatic dragon marauders, evil giants, or mortals seeking the fabulous treasures that they guard or simply out of fear of anything with draconic form. Gold dragons in former times travelled far and wide in mortal lands, but some have become resentful and now restrict themselves to communion with their own kindred. Those that observe the older practices, go forth among mortals in the guise of wandering scholars, wizards, sages, and gurus, often dressed simply and begging for alms, for gold dragons are masters of shape changing magic and may assume many guises. When among mortals, gold dragons seek out master tradesman and artisans with which to share ideas and work on joint projects, so as to master crafts and develop the most refined sense of style. They apply these highly cultivated skills to the manufacture of their palaces. Whilst among mortals, gold dragons are always looking for ways to enlarge their wealth and procure valuable decorations for their lairs, and are likely invested in some well thought business scheme involving long distance trade or exploitation of hither unused resources. A gold dragon among mortals is loathe to reveal its true form, and instead seeks to bring evil doers to justice by guile and by aiding local authorities without the need to resort to violence.
When a gold dragon is away from its horde, it prefers to have some benevolent ally swear to defend its horde and palace against intrusion until it returns. These are likely to be: 1) 1 Noble Djinn, 2) 2d4 Lantern Archons, 3) 1 Movanic Deva, 4) 1 Guardian Naga, 5) 1 Lammasu or 6) a pack of 5-20 blink dogs. It will also employ whatever elaborate magical and physical defenses it can arrange.
Once per day per age category, gold dragons may shape change into the form of any humanoid or animal as the spell polymorph self. They will not assume the face of an a humanoid for the purpose of deception or trickery except under the most dire circumstances, such as to save the life of an innocent.
A gold dragon has powers of clarity and knowledge. A gold dragon may cast divination and prayer once per day each per age category it has attained. A gold dragon of at least adult age may cast quest once per day, targeting a number of individuals equal to its age category. A gold dragon of at least ancient age may cast exorcism and true seeing once per day each, and may cast each spell a second or third time per day upon obtaining wyrm or great wrym age respectively. Caster level of all abilities is the same as the gold dragons HD. Owing to their powerful and disciplined minds, if a gold dragon manifests psionic ability, then it receives a bonus of 1d20 psionic ability points per age category it has attained, rather than the 1d10 usual for metallic dragons.

Great job! Thanks for these!!

Right now I'm on hiatus from my D&D campaign (owing to a job situation) and running a CoC campaign, and have little hope of starting up a pure nostalgia game to test my ideas. However, if anyone is running 1e AD&D or an OSR type game and decides that these rules are just the thing to fix dragons in your game, I would love to get a play test report.

One thing I noticed from playing S&W, and digging though OD&D more, is that the dragons, and a lot of the 1e MM creatures, work a lot better in an OD&D context than 1e. Especially PC created in later 1e with crazy power ups like UA. 30 HP means a lot more when there are almost no stat bonuses to attacks and damage unless you are a fighter, and even then its a lot more dialed back than even the PH stuff, much less the weapon specialized UA material. And likewise 1d6 damage from a claw attack hurts a lot more on a D8 HD fighter with a max of +1 to HP rolls.

1e steadily broke itself as it moved later into its run, then 2e learned the wrong lessons and made dragons demigods.

Not sure this really relates to your work here but I like to spout off. I doubt I'll apply your dragon rules to S&W but if I do I will let you know.

Good thread!

Flexor the Mighty! said:

One thing I noticed from playing S&W, and digging though OD&D more, is that the dragons, and a lot of the 1e MM creatures, work a lot better in an OD&D context than 1e.

Click to expand...

Define 'worked'. So, there are a lot of things wrong with the 1e AD&D dragon. One of them is what you focus on in the rest of your post, namely, that the hit points and claw/claw/bite damage of a dragon seem to be balanced against a party with fewer hit points and less damage per round capacity than what a 1e AD&D party can actually generate. And I'd actually agree. But that's only the tip of the iceberg.

One problem not addressed by that is that the breath weapon is actually balanced against a party with even more hit points than a 1e AD&D party is likely to have. The breath weapon as written TPK's a party in as much that you'd generally expect the PC to die even if they pass their saving throw. Now you could argue that that is intentional, and the idea is that if you meet a dragon then you have to defeat it by subterfuge of some sort and that is by design, but if that is the case then it totally undermines what you've just said about the combat ability of the dragon. Why is there such a binary thing where if the dragon breathes, then it's probably a TPK, but if it does claw/claw/bite then it would be at least balanced and potentially weak? Or to put it more generally, why is the most exciting part of the combat the initiative roll to determine who goes first?

Further, Gygax attempts to simplify the dragon entry down to about three pages by using a single stat block to represent a whole range of dragons and he does this by fixing the hit points of the dragon based on age. At first glance this looks really clever. We can use the same stat block to challenge a 3rd level party with a rather young dragon, and a much higher level party with an ancient dragon or a mated pair of adults. And, certainly looking at the DMG this seems to be Gygax's intention. But it doesn't really work, because scaling the hit points only scales part of the challenge. If we assume that the adult version with like 5 hit points per HD is well balanced against its intended level party, then when a lower level party faces a younger dragon its AC becomes a more serious challenge and its claw/claw/bite attack becomes proportionately more problematic both because it's using the same attack matrix and generating the same damage. At the extreme, you have a wyrmling dragon doing a bite that does 6d6 damage (average 21). That's extremely threatening to a lower level party, yet the same party 8 levels later is now facing an ancient dragon that does only the same damage and likely even the party M-U can take that hit. That uneven scaling means that not only is the stat block unintuitive process simulation (surely a younger dragon should be shorter and do less damage with its bite) but generating interesting encounters gets harder for the DM. For example, if I want to have a fight with a brood of dragons, I probably don't want each individual baby dragon mechanically working just like the momma dragon and differing only by hit points.

That raft of problems remain even if you don't bring UA into the mix or don't particularly power creep the expectations of a PC party.

I'm not familiar enough with OD&D to assert how balanced a dragon would be in that case, nor do I even know what the stat blocks look like.

crap, deleted my comment.

But yes dragons were screwy in OD&D too. I was making more of a general observation about monster design in that book. Assuming I'm doing it right, a 5 HD very young dragon has 5 HP but does 5 attack rolls in melee doing 1d6 each. Same as a 5 HD Ancient with 40 HP. Not the best way to handle that.