D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

clearstream

(He, Him)
Look at vonklaude's examples: the bladesinger needs the first round of the fight just to prepare themselves to fight, AND requires a cleric to also spend the first round preparing the bladesinger to fight. The resource consumption is high -- 2 second level spells spent in the first round alone to prop up the bladesinger against a hard encounter. Further, if you look at the action economy, that's 50% of the total party action resources in the first round spent to just get the bladesinger ready to fight! In a game where most fights are 3 rounds, the bladesinger is expending 4 spell levels and extending the fight by a round at the beginning of most fights!
This resource point is so bogus I have to address it.

BS casts Mage Armor in the morning (1x 1st level slot) and Blur per fight (1x 2nd level slot, can cast it all day with Arcane Recovery). Occasionally Shield (not in the majority of fights). Cleric casts a 1st or 2nd level spell, and in doing so saves a lot of later casts of cure spells. The efficiency is top-tier. BS' 3rd level slots and half their 1st level slots are available for all the wizardry their hearts desire.

What do you think other Wizards are doing? Casting nothing at all? What I find in play is that the non-BS party expends more resources. Evoker is dropping Fireballs? Fireball is a 3rd level spell. Not the cheap and cheerful 2nd level cast BS is winning super-deadly fights with.

There is nothing wrong about taking a round to prepare, if it wins the fight with minimal cost and no casualties. And what do you think other Clerics are doing round 1? Nothing?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tony Vargas

Legend
./self tears hair out! People kept nagging me: "Why do the giants keep attacking the BS? Why don't they run past and attack other characters?" So I had them do that, and they take lashings of damage. Or they stick with the BS, avoid BB proc... and do... very little before they die. If they want to attack characters other than BS, multiple BB proc is unavoidable.
Wow. Sounds like a 4e 'Defender.'

Show me a martial character with the hp pool of a wizard.
Any Rogue with 2 less CON than the Wizard you're comparing him to would have about the same hps. d6+1 vs d8, both are 4.5 on average. Sure, you're not likely to have a Wizard with 4 points of CON on a fighter or 6 points on a Barbarian, and the 'martial' still has a clear advantage a 1st level, but the differences in hps did get pulled in a bit when they boosted the Wizard from d4. And it hasn't been potentially huge since everyone started getting the same bonus from CON (back in the day, only fighter-types could get a +3 or +4 bonus to hps from high CON, others capped at +2).

There is nothing wrong about taking a round to prepare, if it wins the fight with minimal cost and no casualties. And what do you think other Clerics are doing round 1? Nothing?
5e is tuned for fast combat, so a round, especially that first round, can be pretty significant, it's when the enemy is attacking you at full strength (assuming they're not just melee-only cannon fodder a double-move anyway).
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Wow. Sounds like a 4e 'Defender.'

Any Rogue with 2 less CON than the Wizard you're comparing him to would have about the same hps. d6+1 vs d8, both are 4.5 on average. Sure, you're not likely to have a Wizard with 4 points of CON on a fighter or 6 points on a Barbarian, and the 'martial' still has a clear advantage a 1st level, but the differences in hps did get pulled in a bit when they boosted the Wizard from d4. And it hasn't been potentially huge since everyone started getting the same bonus from CON (back in the day, only fighter-types could get a +3 or +4 bonus to hps from high CON, others capped at +2).

5e is tuned for fast combat, so a round, especially that first round, can be pretty significant, it's when the enemy is attacking you at full strength (assuming they're not just melee-only cannon fodder a double-move anyway).


Have to agree there, especially an intelligent, well prepared enemy who will have to drop on you. The PC's have a general advantage in action economy, they do more damage over less actions. Taking a full round to prepare gives up quite a bit of that advantage. The plain wizard will be getting off spells that can greatly change the battle out of the gate, hypnotism, walls separating the enemy, etc.

In addition I think all of these builds (in all of the whiteboard builds) are all built around resting constantly to make sure all powers are refreshed. What if its 3,4,5 combats between rests. I get the burst potential, but I just don't see how you get to the BBEG door, rest for an hour, and then get to go in fully powered up. I just haven't seen campaigns played that way.
 
Last edited:

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Show me a martial character with the hp pool of a wizard. You're treating the use of a first level spell to get high AC as if it's devastating, and it's just not. No one complained ever about the EK getting ACs in that range through shield, and the paladin in my game, at 8th level, sported a 23 AC with shield of faith up. It's not ludicrously high, it's just good for one round at the expense of a spell slot.

I wasn't comparing the BS to a martial, my point was that his survivability is extremely high relative to other wizard traditions. Just the fact that you had to pull out martial builds specifically geared for high ACs bears that out.

And, yes, not getting hit is better than getting hit, but when your evoker gets another level and starts dropping fireballs with impunity, he may like having a 13 AC amid the smoking corpse of hobgoblins (and it doesn't matter if they save or not, really). Your evoker as a Bladesinger would have twisted out 1 additional arrow (on average) by increasing his AC from 13 to 17. Chance for 4 hobgoblins to land at least three hits against AC 13 is slightly worse than landing 2 against AC 17 (47% to 52%). So, in that case, it's not that much better.

It's not with impunity actually, the evoker cannot exclude himself like he can others. If he's surrounded he cannot drop an AoE on himself and benefit from sculpt spell. If my player had gone with the BS (not an option he wasn't playing an elf) his dex would have been higher so likely 18, 22 if he'd bothered with shield (and considering what happened, it would have been worth it). A BS who's not focusing on melee can AoE as well as any tradition that's not an evoker.

It only looks super awesome if you roll for stats and get two high stats to drop in INT and DEX. But, even then, it's not game breaking.

25 point buy and an elf allows for 18 Int and 16 Dex by sixth level easily. That's a 20 base AC with the armor spell (or heck 19 AC with basic studded leather, the BS gives light armor proviciency too, a nice freebie if you don't want to spend the first level spell). And that's assuming by sixth level the BS hasn't acquired an AC enhancing item like a ring of protection. Higher stats certainly help but regular point buy works fine.



A low level character that rolled well using one of the official options for stat generation in the PHB. Yes, that's high, at low level it's very high, and pretty good, but by 5th level the field has evened out and it doesn't get better for the bladesinger. There aren't better defensive spells to use to increase survivability, and enemy attack bonuses, and most importantly damage, outpace the bladesinger's ability to deny hits. Again, a single surprise round or losing initiative can drop a bladesinger, and a dispel magic is lethal to them.

AC doesn't go up THAT much as levels increase in 5e, bounded accuracy an all that. Really the AC starts good and remains good, and unlike other wizards, the BS can prop that up with magic armor.

Surprise is deadly to ANY wizard, less so to the BS because their AC will be higher even without prep.

Dispel magic seems to be a bit of a waste against the BS, especially if he's wearing studded leather. You'll, at best, drop the second level blur and you're burning a 3rd level spell to do it. You might also drop the shield if he has one up but that's dropping anyway.

Plus, while they have this nice high AC, they're burning lots of resources (especially at low level) to prop up their survivability.

Bladesingers are high resource consumption for their one trick of not getting hit. it's not overpowering, and it's a much less great choice for point buy characters.

Wizards in general are high resource characters so this argument doesn't resonate. Because the BS is getting hit less (remember, he doesn't HAVE to go into melee) he's less of a resource drain than most other wizards.

Also your discounting the boost the BS gets to concentration a hefty +3 to +5. This means their spells stay put better than most wizards. If the BS drops a slow on the enemy and becomes the target of their fire: first they have to hit him, and then he has to fail a concentration check something he will do less often than other wizards.



For the bladesinger alone, maybe. Look at vonklaude's examples: the bladesinger needs the first round of the fight just to prepare themselves to fight, AND requires a cleric to also spend the first round preparing the bladesinger to fight. The resource consumption is high -- 2 second level spells spent in the first round alone to prop up the bladesinger against a hard encounter. Further, if you look at the action economy, that's 50% of the total party action resources in the first round spent to just get the bladesinger ready to fight! In a game where most fights are 3 rounds, the bladesinger is expending 4 spell levels and extending the fight by a round at the beginning of most fights!

Plus, one thing the toy example doesn't model is uncertainty about the scale of a fight or the number of fights before or after that fight. When you actually play the bladesinger, and you need those slots to handle a some rolls that go against you, you get really nervous and start to horde the spells rather than spend them so freely. The hill giant fight is entirely isolated from the rest of an adventure.

what's the "other tradition" wizard doing the first round? If he's buffing, it's no different than the BS. If the BS sees he can finish the fight quickly he can cast an offensive spell too, the bladesong is a bonus action.

What's the cleric doing otherwise, if it's buffing, then again, no different. The BS actually has a pretty efficient use of resources, for a wizard.


Sent from my SM-G930V using EN World mobile app
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
./self tears hair out! People kept nagging me: "Why do the giants keep attacking the BS? Why don't they run past and attack other characters?" So I had them do that, and they take lashings of damage. Or they stick with the BS, avoid BB proc... and do... very little before they die. If they want to attack characters other than BS, multiple BB proc is unavoidable.
Well, I've never said the first one, and all of my examples are about giants attacking the bladesinger because it's only a fair review of the bladesinger being able to tank if she, you know, tanks.
This maps well to what I am seeing. Often the BS needs to decide whether or not to let a hit through. With Warding Bond on, yes to the first one is reasonable because it makes good use of the Hit Dice that BS and Cleric want to spend per Short Rest. No to the second hit is when the Shield triggers. As I said: 0-1 Shield in the "hard" scenario.
Except it's more like 1-2, with a smaller chance of none (chance of 0 hits is 22%). If you use the examples with shield of faith and a higher AC, well, then, you've swapped shield our for shield of faith and have still spent a 1st level slot, only this is one you can't Arcane Recovery.

Your numbers back up what I am finding in playtests and reporting here. Take the AC 22 example: often one hit, sometimes two hits, hardly ever more than that. And that is if the giants waste their time hammering solely on the BS, which I'm finding condemns them to an ineffectual death. As I said, at this point it would make a lot of sense to me if you said - okay, fine, the maths and the playtests converge on BS easily tanking giants, let's look at some groups of foes with casters.

In the hope of moving on from this point, I trust that you will accept that parties without BS spend at least some resources. In my playtests, I have found that to be more resources, but we can debate that finding after we see if casters are a BS' Achilles heel? If we make that discovery, then we can backtrack and check whether our BS alternatives - martial tanks and Diviner or Evoker Wizards - do any better. Because ultimately, the question isn't - is BS Pun-Pun? - it's does BS overshadow martial tanks while still being a solid Wizard?
Up your resource assumptions by 1 shield per combat and we'll be able to move past it.

And, no, it doesn't, because it's spending the majority of it's resources and combat options to be a front liner and reduces it's effectiveness as a wizard concurrently. During the period where the bladesinger AC is very good relative to enemies' attack bonuses, it has limited access to spells over 2nd level and needs almost all of those to run it's shtick. After around 7th, where you have some availability of higher slots, the enemies' attacks have gotten to the point where the bladesinger's shtick becomes much more dangerous -- she's getting hit more often and the damage is higher but her hitpoints aren't keeping up. You're handwaving that away with clerical support, but what happens in a party without clerical support or in a party where the cleric's player isn't interested in being the bladesinger's batman?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This resource point is so bogus I have to address it.

BS casts Mage Armor in the morning (1x 1st level slot) and Blur per fight (1x 2nd level slot, can cast it all day with Arcane Recovery). Occasionally Shield (not in the majority of fights). Cleric casts a 1st or 2nd level spell, and in doing so saves a lot of later casts of cure spells. The efficiency is top-tier. BS' 3rd level slots and half their 1st level slots are available for all the wizardry their hearts desire.

What do you think other Wizards are doing? Casting nothing at all? What I find in play is that the non-BS party expends more resources. Evoker is dropping Fireballs? Fireball is a 3rd level spell. Not the cheap and cheerful 2nd level cast BS is winning super-deadly fights with.

There is nothing wrong about taking a round to prepare, if it wins the fight with minimal cost and no casualties. And what do you think other Clerics are doing round 1? Nothing?

You've completely missed the point I've been making. Of course the non-bladesinger wizard is casting spells, but they're casting spells that affect the enemy, not propping up their ability to go up to the front line. That 2nd level blur in the bladesinger's first round is a fireball or scorching ray or hypnotic pattern or sleep or grease or any number of other spells that immediately and effectively hamper/harm the enemy. The bladesinger is burning a round and a spell just to not get hit when they wade up to the front line next turn. And you've involved your cleric in propping up the bladesinger instead of doing something useful to the enemy, like a spiritual weapon or casting spiritual guardians with the plan to wade in themselves and just dodge (with plate and a shield, that's a 20 AC and disadvantage, very similar to the bladesinger's 21 and disadvantage on the first round).

I'm not at all saying those resources aren't expended, I'm saying they're expended at the enemy rather than providing the bladesinger that critical 13% reduction in chance to be hit because she'd have to spend her own resources if that happened.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
So we agree that you've talked about more than one scenario. Good.


Yup. 9% chance to hit against AC 21 with blur. With +8 to hit, that's a base 30% chance to hit (hit on a 16+), we only care about cases where the first roll hits (if it misses we're done), so it's 30% chance to roll a 30% chance or 9%.


Nope, if they cast a scorching ray and a grease, they've spent the same slots as the bladesinger and dealt half your damage and pulled an opponent out of combat for 1-2 rounds, reducing the total number of attacks. And scorching ray is usually a bad choice.


Wait, you didn't rig things and then you had the giants get hit with booming blade and then proc it (despite your edit saying no booming blade procs) AND an AO, over and over for three rounds? Yeah, best case scenario for the bladesinger to deal damage....
I gave maths -- I provided the exact formula you need to figure it out on your own. And my offer was for AC, bonus to hit, and number of rounds, and you provided that exactly once and I gave you the numbers for the midpoint of your scenario already. If you're going to demand things, maybe actually do it before you accuse me of reneging.

For AC 22, +8 to hit, 8 attacks, blur:
At least,,,,,chance
1 hit..........65%
2 hits.........26%
3 hits.........6%
4 hits.........1%
1 Crit..........2%

For AC 23, +8 to hit, 8 attacks, blur:
1 hit...........53%
2 hits..........16%
3 hits...........3%
1 Crit...........2% (this doesn't change)

For AC 24, +8 to hit, 9 attacks, blur:
1 hit............40%
2 hits...........9%
3 hits...........1%
1 Crit...........2%

Without cleric spells, AC 21, +8 to hit, blur:
1 hit...........75%
2 hits.........37%
3 hits.........12%
4 hits...........3%
1 Crit...........2%

Loses initiative for 2 attacks (rocks) (25% chance of occurrence or 1:4 fights), , AC 17 then AC 21 with blur, +8 to hit, 4 attacks (after the 2 rocks):
Rocks:
1 hit...........84%
2 hits..........36%
Melee
1 hit...........50%
2 hits..........12%
3 hits..........1%


Pick a scenario, I'll give you the PDF. It's not as pretty as you're assuming with your play examples. And, remember, those numbers are "at least this many hits". That first one is a 65% chance of being hit at least once.[/QUOTE]

Does 1 giant attack always down the blade singer? Does it have a chance to? What is that chance? What about 2 attacks?

Now, with that in mind let's see how a standard sword and shield fighter will do. Post the numbers for us if you don't mind. Lets see your chances of taking 1, 2 3 and 4 hits. Let's also estimate how many attacks its going to take to down the fighter. I'm guessing maybe 1 more than it takes to down the blade singer? Heck include 2nd wind if you can.

I'm betting the blade singer lives just as long as the fighter against those giants. Maybe a monte carlo sim would be best for this. I think a forum member has made one that would be more or less capable of this exercise.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
what's the "other tradition" wizard doing the first round? If he's buffing, it's no different than the BS. If the BS sees he can finish the fight quickly he can cast an offensive spell too, the bladesong is a bonus action.

What's the cleric doing otherwise, if it's buffing, then again, no different. The BS actually has a pretty efficient use of resources, for a wizard. [/URL]
Okay, I'm not going to talk about the rest, but this is just BS. There are plenty of wizards and clerics who don't spend their first rounds buffing. Especially Evokers don't.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
This thread really is going to go on until everybody just tires of explaining to the OP that, no, it's just you who thinks the BS is OP, is it...? 😕

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
Nah. It'll be one of those that last indefinitely until the language gets bad enough that its forcefully shut down by the mods. This has become nothing more than another battleground for Fighter v. Wizard debate, and the idea that fighters aren't allowed to have nice things. Don't we have another Fighter thread going on around here that's complaining about Fighters not being variable enough, and the Rogue Scout ruining the Fighter Scout, or something?
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
5e is tuned for fast combat, so a round, especially that first round, can be pretty significant, it's when the enemy is attacking you at full strength (assuming they're not just melee-only cannon fodder a double-move anyway).
If casting two spells in round one wins a combat with minimal further resource costs or losses, then that is the best tactic. It does. So it is.

Tactics should be judged on outcomes, not preconceptions.
 

Remove ads

Top