D&D 5E E6 in 5e

Li Shenron

Legend
E6 was a very good idea in 3e, but IMHO it might be somewhat less satisfactory in 5e.

The reason is that in 5e there are more higher-level class features and abilities for every class (especially non-casters), which are going to be missed out when capping class advancement at level 6.

For example, in 3e a Fighter in a E6 game would lose only extra attacks, but in 5e she would also lose all her subclass benefits (except the first) as well as a couple of more things.

While still an elegant solution to prevent game-breaking magical effects to be available in the game, I would rather look to some other idea that doesn't throw away all the non-game-breaking goodies. One possibility would be to simply re-instate those missed out features in the form of new feats; another to cap the level in spellcasting classes only; yet another to just cherrypick-out of the game the unwanted spells and otherwise level up as normal.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
I suppose I worded that poorly. In my anecdotal experience most role-players are also computer gamers. Most of this category of people that I know are younger than I am. Many of those computer gamers play MMO's, and are highly concerned about how much fun the "end-game" is to play. I have heard similar concerns about D&D: it takes too long to get to 20th level, there's nothing to do at 20th level, games end before 20th level or shortly after getting there, etc.

My point was that using E6 gives a sense of "end-game" that a group can enjoy for an extended period of time. New characters can join in without being completely over-shadowed by higher level characters. This makes it possible for players to come and go, or replacement 1st level character's to get involved after an old character dies, without needing to skip levels. You could have a veteran player that does not want to quit playing his old character team up with a new generation of heroes for the next campaign without him being a one-man show.

Oh, I understand and totally agree with the 2nd paragraph.

One of the things I love about games like The One Ring and Dungeon World is that the power curve is flatter so you can mix experience levels.
 

Wulffolk

Explorer
5E does not Need E6 because it has bound accuracy.

Accuracy is far from the only concern with higher levels. If bounded accuracy were the solution to everything then you would have no problem fitting a 1st level character into a high level party. I consider Hit Point bloat and high level spells to be the main problems
 
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Wulffolk

Explorer
To those of you that do not E6, that is fine. I never suggested that it was a perfect fit into 5e. There are definitely issues that might need worked out. I offered this info to others that might not have heard about it. Perhaps it would give them ideas that would work in there game. Personally, I loved E6 when I played 3.5e. However, as I wrote a couple of posts ago, were I to try it in 5e I think I would modify some things to make it fit better.
 


Mephista

Adventurer
To those of you that do not E6, that is fine. I never suggested that it was a perfect fit into 5e. There are definitely issues that might need worked out. I offered this info to others that might not have heard about it. Perhaps it would give them ideas that would work in there game. Personally, I loved E6 when I played 3.5e. However, as I wrote a couple of posts ago, were I to try it in 5e I think I would modify some things to make it fit better.
This has nothing to do with not needing it, and everything to do with how the opening post phrases things. Personally, I actually like the idea of capping HP, proficency and a few other things at around level 6, but letting the other things grow.

But the opening reddit post? Sorry, that's nothing more than a rant blaming spellcasters for ruining games, and completely misses the point of E6 in its entirety. Yes, spellcasters outshining everyone else was a major problem in 3e. I get that some people still think that spellcasters are stronger than warrior classes. And I can even empathize to an extent. But its undeniable that E6 also addresssed things like hp bloat and skill growth issues (not worth trying things if you're untrained, challenge trivial if you are trained).

This isn't a few tweaks needed. Its a massive overhaul and redesign.
 


Wulffolk

Explorer
I'm working on an SRD5 overhaul that uses an E6 style of progression, myself. In discussing its development with a friend, an interesting point emerged. Higher level play (roughly 10+) tends to make me feel like I'm losing control of the story due to the huge bag of tricks those PCs carry around. The main problem for me is that creating certain types of obstacles becomes increasingly contrived. As the PCs gain agency over their world, I feel like I'm losing it as the DM.

Please share your work here, if or when you complete it. I would be very interested to read your take on E6.

I can understand how you feel about losing control of your world. Part of my problem with higher level play is that it stretches my suspension of disbelief as I have to add more and more super-powered antagonists to the setting to challenge the players. I find myself wondering why, if there are so many such creatures or villains in the world, did they not just over-run everything ages ago. Why are they a problem now that the character's are 20th level, and not back when the character's were 1st level. Where did so many dangerous foes come from, and how was there ever room in the world for ordinary life. Those kinds of things tend to bug me as a player and a DM.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I've actually been considering it for a while for my low-magic BtW/5e hybrid. I'm probably targeting E4 or E5, though. I'm not sure if I want to open up Extra Attack and 3rd level spells. I'm not a big fan of the Extra Attack mechanic, and 3rd level spells like fireball and spirit guardians are a big game-changer in dealing with groups of weaker monsters, which I would like to keep as threatening.

My main mechanical focus is allowing the characters to spend experience to train with factions, or learn special abilities from their acquired magical items. Spending 2000 XP on training with the Shamans of the Doom Volcano for a few months might grant fire resistance and the ability to cast flaming sphere once per short rest, or spending 3000 XP on mastering your cloak of elvenkind might give you Stealth Expertise and the ability to cast Pass without Trace.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
Ultimately, the reddit poster claimed three things as the reason for E6. In short - teleportation, raising the dead, and "quadratic wizard."

Quadratic wizard refers to the tendacy of 3e spellcasters to have several effects at each level - their lower level spells got stronger (ie, a a fifth level wizard would deal 5d6 damage with a fireball spell, while a tenth level wizard deals 10d6, both using a 3rd level slot), they gained more spell slots, they gained higher level spells that dealt more damage than lower level spells, even as they scaled. This is why it was quadratic - multiple things grew with each level, and that's before metamagic. Meanwhile, 5e wizards either a new spell level, or a different class ability. Its a linear growth. 5e casters are linear. (Technically, the Battlemaster is quadratic, since the martial dice grow in both sides on the die and in the number of dice you roll) Are casters still stronger than warriors? That's debatable; even if we say they are for the sake of argument, then we still can't say the reason is level 4 spells. Fireball is actually just as strong as level 5 damage spells. All spells, from level 3 through 5, are all roughly equal in power. There's no big jump in power until spell level 6.

This is keeping within the D&D tiers. 1-4 are "local heroes," 5-10 are "heroes of the realm," 11-16 are "masters of the realm" and 17+ are "masters of the world." All abilities within that tier are roughly considered equal.

The Reddit post then calls out teleport and resurrection magics as "beyond mortal ken." Ah, Dimension Door is a level 4 spell, and Raise Dead is level 5. Now we're getting somewhere. This explains why the post was complaining about level 4 magic. Now, I fully acknowledge that some GMs don't like teleports for how they can allow a party to get around challenges in dungeons. And some GMs prefer death to be final. And that's acceptable. But if these kinds of spells are an issue... can't we just ban teleports and raise dead magics? Are there really other spells out there that are so offensive starting at level 4?


If you want a E6 style game, lets address the issues at play. At what point are casters "stronger" than warriors? People often feel that magic trivializes non-magical challenges, so what magic is doing the trivializing? While we're at it, lets talk about feats too. Specifically, the Xbow Mastery, Sniper, Great Weapon Mastery and Polearm Mastery combos. These are generally considered to be pretty brutal after a point because of Bounded accuracy making that -5 penalty to be trivial. At what point is that going to be an issue? We should also keep that in mind.

E6, the original version, also served to keep attribute growth a bit more contained. To quote from the 3.x version - "Once transformed by their experiences, a character’s growth is no longer a continuous, linear progression. Instead, they specialize or broaden their abilities: There are still major differences between the master warriors and the veteran mercenaries, but it's not a change of scale."

This version is almost entirely comprised of ASI. Linear growth of abiltiies. They'll be pushing their attributes up to the next level, rather than broadening their abilities. That's kind of against the entire leveling idea of the original E6 rules. So, we should be considering other ways of growth rather than pure numbers.

Someone else brought up the issue that, without dead levels, there's a lot going on in classes we'd like to see. Such as, if I was playing a wizard, I would like to see getting my hands on the level 10 subclass ability. Or an eldritch knight being able to do the teleport when spending an action surge. Those are fun, often iconic abilities. A paladin might want to get their subclass' aura. A monk or sorcerer want to increase their class points, while a battlemaster would want more martial dice, even if they don't get more sides on the dice. How are we going to address this?
 
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