Changing Attitude of NPCs

The DMG (somewhere around p. 146) says something about changing the attitude of NPCs (hostile/unfriendly/...) by making Charisma checks.

Changing the attitude from for example hostile to helpful (from one extreme to the other) requires a Charisma check of 50!!! How can this result be achieved? Rolling a twenty and heaving Charisma 70?

Or is it possible to use skill check results of skills like Diplomacy, Perform, Bluff and Intimidate substituting the Charisma check?

Regarding this topic, I have one further question: some bardic instruments (from S&S) can change NPC attitudes like the harmonica after a successful Perform check. What should be the DC of this check?

Nathan

Nathan said:

The DMG (somewhere around p. 146) says something about changing the attitude of NPCs (hostile/unfriendly/...) by making Charisma checks.

Changing the attitude from for example hostile to helpful (from one extreme to the other) requires a Charisma check of 50!!! How can this result be achieved? Rolling a twenty and heaving Charisma 70?

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This is pretty on target. You are talking about Godlike charisma to make such a total shift so quickly.

Or is it possible to use skill check results of skills like Diplomacy, Perform, Bluff and Intimidate substituting the Charisma check?

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Bluff, no. Intimidation, no. Perform doubtful. Only Diplomacy is a maybe. But it changes the dynamic quite a bit. It's -very- hard to get a +10 char check. It's But a 4th Level character can have a +20 Diploroll easily.

Re: Re: Changing Attitude of NPCs

Black Omega said:

Bluff, no. Intimidation, no. Perform doubtful. Only Diplomacy is a maybe.

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Perhaps I should make clear, why I included the skills Bluff and Intimidation:

Making a reasonable bluff can shift the attitude of people on the scale hostile ... helpful, at least in the real world.
Also, a successful Intimidation should make people more helpful toward the intimidator.

But it changes the dynamic quite a bit. It's -very- hard to get a +10 char check. It's But a 4th Level character can have a +20 Diploroll easily.

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If, normally, only a pure Charisma check is allowed, why are values like 50 are included in the table of the DMG? How can characters actually avoid combats with initially hostile NPC groups if only a roll on a 16 or more (for a PC group leader with a Charisma of 18!) can change their attitude?

Note the following from the description of Diplomacy, in the PHB:

Special: Charisma checks to influence NPCs are generally untrained Diplomacy checks.

Re: Re: Re: Changing Attitude of NPCs

Nathan said:

a reasonable bluff can shift the attitude of people on the scale hostile ... helpful, at least in the real world.
Also, a successful Intimidation should make people more helpful toward the intimidator.

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A bluff is telling a lie and getting someone to believe it. While this may or may not change a person's attitude toward you, trying to do this is already covered under the explanation of Bluff in the PHB. pg. 64. Successfully bluffing an NPC (vs. the NPC's Sense Motive check,) would change the NPC's attitude to match the new (perceived) circumstances, which may or may not be beneficial for you.

While succesfully Intimidating an NPC will usually cause the NPC to be more helpful, it will not shift the NPCs attitude to "helpful." That attitude refers to the opposite of "hostile," as in, the NPC likes you so much, he's willing to help you out. Intimidate, on the other hand, refers to putting the fear into an NPC, so that he's afraid to not help you. Be careful mixing the concepts. The "helpful" you get after intimidating someone is not the "helpful" refered to on the NPC attitude chart.

If, normally, only a pure Charisma check is allowed, why are values like 50 are included in the table of the DMG? How can characters actually avoid combats with initially hostile NPC groups if only a roll on a 16 or more (for a PC group leader with a Charisma of 18!) can change their attitude?

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Keep in mind first of all, that a hostile NPC will not always attack the PCs. Hostile just means the NPC holds a strong dislike for the party more than simply being "unfriendly". He'll probably go out of his way to mess up the party's plans, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's ready, willing, or able to risk bodily harm by actually fighting the PCs.

Now NPCs who are about to attack the PCs are, of course, "hostile." But in this case the suggested charisma check is right on the money. After all, you have to be very, very charismatic if you want to stop a group of NPCs who have reasons to attack you, based on your charisma alone!

If the DM makes use of diplomacy checks it's probably the most useful skill in the game. For example you could use it in combat. As a standard action you holler a short speach before the opposition, if you succeed with your diplomacy you could shift their attitude towards you to indifferent or even helpful. This ought to stop the action fairly quickly.

"Why are we fighting these guys anyway? This was just a big mistake. -Sorry about stabbing you in the back, luckily no one got seriously hurt."

"Don't worry. We'll just pick up this scepter and we'll be on our way, see..."

"Wait a minute... you can't just take that, you know."

"Oh sorry, how much do you want for it?"

Frostmarrow said:

"Why are we fighting these guys anyway? This was just a big mistake. -Sorry about stabbing you in the back, luckily no one got seriously hurt."

"Don't worry. We'll just pick up this scepter and we'll be on our way, see..."

"Wait a minute... you can't just take that, you know."

"Oh sorry, how much do you want for it?"

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Well, given that a Tumble skill check of 50+ lets you run up walls Crouching Tiger-style, a Diplomacy skill check of 50+ should let you waltz out of the royal treasury unharmed. Keeping the scepter, though, would probably up the DC to 75....

Frostmarrow said:

If the DM makes use of diplomacy checks it's probably the most useful skill in the game. For example you could use it in combat. As a standard action you holler a short speach before the opposition, if you succeed with your diplomacy you could shift their attitude towards you to indifferent or even helpful. This ought to stop the action fairly quickly.

"Why are we fighting these guys anyway? This was just a big mistake. -Sorry about stabbing you in the back, luckily no one got seriously hurt."

"Don't worry. We'll just pick up this scepter and we'll be on our way, see..."

"Wait a minute... you can't just take that, you know."

"Oh sorry, how much do you want for it?"

Click to expand...

First, I think the DM should use the diplomacy skill in the game. I know that many players and DMs think that interacting verbally with NPC should be handled via role-playing and not roll-playing. On the other side, players have limited diplomatic skills, often more limited than those of the bard they play. This is a situation where the dice roll should come in. In a fight in the game, it doesn't matter if the players can fight or not, the outcome of the fight depends mostly on the fighting capabilities of the characters (i.e. die rolls).

My opinion on using the diplomacy skill during combat is the following:
1.) It should be possible.
2.) One question is: How many NPCs are possibly affected?
3.) The skill check should have a big penalty due to the combat situation. (Something like using Charm Person in combat).

The Diplomacy check should just be used to "translate" what the player says into what the character says and how the character says it. If your player just says "I'll use Diplomacy on the Guards" rather than even trying to roleplay through it, then you are just playing Diablo with dice.

It's not difficult to get ultra-high Diplomacy checks with the proper skills, feats, and PrCs (not to mention the too-cheap magic items for boosting skills). If you let a PC just "turn off" combat with a single die-roll, your game is going to become un-fun rather quickly (at least for all the non-Diplomats in the group).

Well, I can see a skilled diplomat ending a war, but I don't think there is time during a battle for anyone to convince the two sides to stop fighting. So, yes, I would allow a diplomat to change NPCs attitudes from Hostile to Friendly with a successful diplomacy check (but I would have this be a long, time consuming process), but I don't think there is anything anyone can say in 6 seconds while combat is going on that will cause the NPCs to drop their weapons and hug the PCs.

IceBear