D&D 5E Challenge with a good group

Don’t make “win the fight” the challenge.
Put the challenge elsewhere.
Pc are meant to win the fight in DnD. Faster or easier for certain groups.

Warpiglet said:

Hello all,

Wanted a few opinions about challenging a group. About to take my first swipe at a new 5e campaign.

I play with a group of friends I have known for more than three decades. There is no cheating, no messing up other people's fun, no real naysaying...we left that behind in high school! So I have the ability to make a request that is not a rule.

I am reskinning some published stuff (e.g. yawning portal, etc.) to be placed in a campaign world I have worked on for some time. I do not want the very experienced group to blow through things. I also do not want to impinge on creativity and options too much. Which of the following would you recommend? Also what would you add to the list?

1. Discourage bless+ GWM and SS

2. Default array/point buy vs. rolling

3. No feats + multiclass

4. Certain multiclass combos discouraged

5. simply add CR to encounters

6. Limit the group to 4 PCs

7. some combination of the above or something you would like to suggest



Lastly, this is not an indictment of the system or any style of gaming, at all. I just want more chances for players to feel the heat and do tactical retreats/high five one another after successes.

I want success to be likely, failure to be very possible with the dial or likelihood being moved by choice, incredibly good and bad die rolling excepted.

The plan would be to tell people up front combat is a "war game" and to treat it as such. In wargames poor reconnaissance and overconfidence can lead to custer's last stand. Don't be that guy!

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1. I think I'd have GWM give +1 damage instead of the -5/+10 option and keep everything else on it the same. (Maybe +2 damage if that feels better). I'd find some other reasonable bonus for sharpshooter instead of -5/+10 as well. Once these feats are toned down everything else works pretty well, including bless.

2. If it was me I'd roll up or make up 5ish arrays I would be comfortable with any player using and have players pick from them for their stats. As DM you can keep it balanced and allow enough diversity that way.

3a. Definetely allow multiclassing. Almost any multiclass combo before level 5 is questionable. Even multiclassing at level 5 is a big sacrifice for most classes. Level 11+ multiclassing is a bit better. The only thing I may change for multiclassing is eldritch blast + agonizing blast. Somehow tie the scaling for one or both of those to warlock level.

3b. Honestly, outside GWM and SS there aren't many other must take feats. If you want to ban something about feats then ban variant human. Almost every feat is fine if you are taking it at level 4+. It's just getting some of them at level 1 can cause power issues early.

4. See 3a.

5. You should always have this as an option in your back pocket but it's not good as the only option IMO. Severe intra-party imbalance generally hurts the fun of a game. So avoid that but if the party as a whole is pretty evenly balanced and having to easy of a time throw more at them.

6. I'd have a group limit. I would not make that limit 4. Maybe 5 or 6 incase one doesn't show sometimes you still have enough to run the game.

7. Allow and encourage people to try new characters in the campaign at any time and enable them to do so. Don't worry about how it affects party jobs (as in 5e you can run all melee or all caster or no healer all pretty well). Just adjust a few things as the DM in each case and it works fine.

The most important thing you can do (in my opinion) is add more monsters to an encounter. The party generally needs to be outnumbered for a fight to be a challenge. Even if you want a "solo" fight, you shouldn't make it completely a solo fight. If no other creatures make sense, then create environmental effects that do, such as lair actions. They don't have to be formal lair actions, they could just be terrain elements and such (traps, burning bridges, erupting lava, etc). What you don't want is for the party to be able to focus all of their offense and defense on a single monster. Make sure they have to split it up substantially.

Sword of Spirit said:

The most important thing you can do (in my opinion) is add more monsters to an encounter. The party generally needs to be outnumbered for a fight to be a challenge. Even if you want a "solo" fight, you shouldn't make it completely a solo fight. If no other creatures make sense, then create environmental effects that do, such as lair actions. They don't have to be formal lair actions, they could just be terrain elements and such (traps, burning bridges, erupting lava, etc). What you don't want is for the party to be able to focus all of their offense and defense on a single monster. Make sure they have to split it up substantially.

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Agreed.

And use spellcasting foes. The CR for spellcasters that are protected by others skyrockets compared to the actual listed CR.

In my experience, the most consistent way to increase combat difficulty is to increase the number of easy and medium encounters in a day. More encounters trumps harder encounters.

Hard (and I mean general definition, not DMG CR definition) encounters are swingy. Players will throw everything they have at it. They'll win or they'll wipe, and when it's over, they'll be drained and won't budge until they can get a rest in.

With easy to medium encounters, players will be much more likely to push on as their resources diminish. They'll weigh their spell slots more carefully. Hit dice and short rests become more important.

That said, obviously a good idea to think creatively in terms of the kinds of tactics your monsters are using and the kind of foes your characters are facing.

iserith said:

I recommend you don't choose your game options and restrictions based on some nebulous idea of where the difficulty for challenges will end up since you can control that on the DM's side of the screen by tweaking monsters, stakes, terrain, and adjusting XP per encounter.

Instead, I recommend choosing game options and restrictions that support the fictional theme and play experience you want to create at the table.

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This.

But I also recommend using just the Standard Array. My DM has found it makes his job easier, and I have found it provides/forces room to grow statwise that I appreciate far more than I expected.