D&D 5E What makes a good Lancer?

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POSTS CONTAINS REFERENCES TO MMORPGS AND OTHER VIDEO GAME CONTENT, AS WELL AS DISREGARD FOR THE FIGHTER CLASS. MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR ALL GAMERS. READER DISCRETION IS ADVISED.

If you want to skip all the text and just get right to the question, jump down to the TL;DR near the bottom. Okay, now that's out of the way...

So, the other day, a friend of mine was talking about playing Final Fantasy XIV again. The online version, and this friend was encouraging myself and a few other online friends to try signing up and playing. So, I did. Tried running around a bit, tried out the character generator - it had humans, elves, beast folk, orcs/goliath mix, halflings and dragon (but look like tieflings) types for races, then a few options for classes (more in a bit). Game starts off, and you end up in a stereotypical opening for a japanese take on tolkein-y fantasy stories. Adventure guilds, picking fights, etc. Eventually got bored of the game, but there were a few notable features I think that were interesting.

There are several classes you can join and learn from, divided into roles and crafting/gathering things. But here's the kicker - you can switch to any jobs you've learned just by swapping your weapon. Want to be a rogue? Equip a dagger. Monk? Fist claws. Cleric? A staff/hammer. And so on.

This kind of tickled my fancy, even if I wasn't a fan of FFXIV's execution of it. But it seemed pretty clear that there was a kind of symmetry between this game and D&D's classes. A rogue is the best at using daggers, no doubt about it, and they're iconic for the class. Barbarians do tend to use great axes (its even a design intention), and arguably the best damage dealers in the game. Monks are known for their unarmed attacks. Paladins are the iconic sword and board users, just as Rangers are known for their archery (and, in 5e, get some bow-smites). The stereotypical life cleric uses a mace (basically a one handed hammer). And so on. Fighter's an outsider, but that shouldn't be a surprise - the Fighter is defined as being master of any weapon that they pick up.

But then, I realized something. There's no equivalent of the lance-using Dragoon in D&D; there's not even a Fighting Style for fighters to take that really work with . Okay, then. Maybe its just a D&D thing. Lets check out other games. In games with an origin in Europe or America? I started noticing a trend - while spears generally are included as possible options... rarely are they given more than an after thought. I found some in World of Darkness, but that's an urban horror game, not fantasy. So, curious, I looked at some Asian games instead - Ryuutama, a Japanese TT game, includes spears as a list of one of six default weapons to use. The Disgaea franchise includes spear as one of their eight or so weapons. I found a few games with a Valkyrie class that used spears, often harking to Odin's Gungnir.

Curiouser and curioser, I delved into a couple of other games as well. Spear type weapons tended to focus on higher defense than anything but sword/shield combos. They get more reach than other weapons, and curiously, lots of movement abilities - maybe the FF dragoon has some roots in a real world style I'm not familiar with, and it spread to other games as well?

TL;DR - So, curious minds inquiring. Ignore the Fighter and taking feats for now. What would you like to see in a Lancer themed class? What kind of archetype would you like to use? What kind of abilities? None of these have to be restricted to a spear, of course, but just some abilities that you think is iconic to a spear warrior in a fantasy setting.

I'd like to see spear users be able to pull off special maneuvers with their spear; maybe they can disarm a foe, use their spear as leverage to trip a foe, or point the spear at a comrade to inspire them. I also wouldn't mind seeing spear users learn the ability to imbue their spear attacks with magic or learn a small selection of spells. Also, let's have a simpler subclass for spear users that just makes them better at fighting in a more generic sense.

Mephista said:

There's no equivalent of the lance-using Dragoon in D&D; there's not even a Fighting Style for fighters to take that really work with . Okay, then.
.... Spear type weapons tended to focus on higher defense than anything but sword/shield combos. They get more reach than other weapons, and curiously, lots of movement abilities - maybe the FF dragoon has some roots in a real world style I'm not familiar with, and it spread to other games as well?

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A Dragoon is an historical troop type, light infantry of the 17th & 18th century Europe. It's use in fantasy is obviously anachronistic. But, light infantry emphasizes mobility, so maybe there's just a hint of it there - OTOH, Dragoons typically used swords (sabers, presumably backswords and the like) and firearms, rather than spears/lances.
:shrug:

TL;DR - So, curious minds inquiring. Ignore the Fighter and taking feats for now.

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OK, feats are optional, and I know there's plenty wrong with the fighter, but that just seems like insult to injury. ;(

What would you like to see in a Lancer themed class? What kind of archetype would you like to use? What kind of abilities? None of these have to be restricted to a spear, of course, but just some abilities that you think is iconic to a spear warrior in a fantasy setting.

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Seems a very narrow theme, and would be an oddball in 5e as a class if it didn't have a door open to using magic somehow. But, let's see...

As a martial class, it's sub-classes, like the fighter and rogue, would presumably be 'martial archetypes.' Dragoon, a mounted archetype, could be one of them, if you liked. I suppose an infantry take on a spear user could be another - to be anachronistic in entirely the opposite direction, a Hoplite, perhaps?

Spear & shield of a hoplite or mounted fantasy dragoon (knight, c'mon, it's a knight at that point) could give good AC, and superior reach should obviously be a feature. Mounted obviously translates to mobility, while hoplites were known for solid staying power (they were the heavy infantry of their day).

No idea how or why you'd differentiate that from the fighter rather than just making them more fighter archetypes...

The problem with the Fighter is that its the everyman. It does everything and is defined by nothing. I want to ignore it because I'm curious to think of what could be unique here.

Could people at least try to do this without saying "just do fighter?" That's just a tired old argument - you could arguably do any of the warrior types as a fighter, and that's not what I'm asking for. Specifically.

D&D has always put spears as simple, lower damage polearm. And there has been plenty of support for polearms in every edition.

Here's AD&D list of polearm weapons.

Polearm, Awl Pike3 5 gp 12 L P 13 1d6 1d12 PHB
Polearm, Bardiche 7 gp 12 L S 9 2d4 2d6 PHB
Polearm, Bec De Corbin 8 gp 10 L P/B 9 1d8 1d6 PHB
Polearm, Bill-Guisarme 7 gp 15 L P/S 10 2d4 1d10 PHB
Polearm, Crusher 24 gp 9 L B 10 1d4 1d3 Dra #185
Polearm, Fauchard 5 gp 7 L P/S 8 1d6 1d8 PHB
Polearm, Fauchard-Fork 8 gp 9 L P/S 8 1d8 1d10 PHB
Polearm, Giant-kin Halberd 25 gp 35 G P/S 12 1d12 2d8 PHBR10
Polearm, Glaive4 6 gp 8 L S 8 1d6 1d10 PHB
Polearm, Glaive-Guisarme4 10 gp 10 L P/S 9 2d4 2d6 PHB
Polearm, Guisarme 5 gp 8 L S 8 2d4 1d8 PHB
Polearm, Guisarme-Voulge 8 gp 15 L P/S 10 2d4 2d4 PHB
Polearm, Gythka 6 cp 12 L P/B 9 2d4 1d10 Dark Sun
Polearm, Halberd 10 gp 15 L P/S 9 1d10 2d6 PHB
Polearm, Hook Fauchard 10 gp 8 L P/S 9 1d4 1d4 PHB
Polearm, Lucern Hammer3 7 gp 15 L P/B 9 2d4 1d6 PHB
Polearm, Military Fork4 5 gp 7 L P 7 1d8 2d4 PHB
Polearm, Naginata3 8 gp 10 L P 7 1d8 1d10 PHBR1
Polearm, Partisan3 10 gp 8 L P 9 1d6 1d6+1 PHB
Polearm, Quad Fauchard 20 gp 20 L S 9 1d6 1d8 Poly #99
Polearm, Ranseur3 6 gp 7 L P 8 2d4 2d4 PHB
Polearm, Spetum3 5 gp 7 L P 8 1d6+1 2d6 PHB
Polearm, Tetsubo 2 gp 7 L B 7 1d8 1d8 PHBR1
Polearm, Trikal 12 gp 8 L S/B 8 1d10 1d10 CGR2
Polearm, Voulge

As well as 9 different types of spears.


For 5e, there's the very popular polearm master. Which let's you defend a spot by attacking anyone who comes close. Seems perfectly reasonable to just add spear to that list.

I agree with the others that fighters, feats, and multiclassing can capture the dragoon pretty well, but since you've gone through the trouble of repeating yourself that's not what you want...

I stopped playing Final Fantasy after VII, so I'm not sure what modern dragoons look like. I'm basing everything that follows on this blurb from some wiki:

"The trademark ability of Dragoons is Jump, which allows them to leap into the air, avoid attacks while airborne, and descend a moment later to impale enemies and deal heavy damage. Some Dragoons can upgrade Jump to Double Jump for increased damage. Another recurring Dragoon ability is Lancet, sometimes called Dragon Sword, which allows them to attack an opponent and drain their HP and MP to heal themselves. Sometimes, Dragoons use various breath abilities to either deal elemental damage or heal their allies, referring to dragons' typical ability of breathing fire."

The thing about classes is they're supposed to encompass a variety of concepts, each with their own signature abilities. Reading the above, the dragoon has a pretty small selection of abilities to specialize in, so there's some inherent difficulty in building a class from it (as opposed to an archetype, which would be comparatively easy and much more appropriate IMO)

Still, we can start with Jump as their key ability. It ought to come online at first level. Maybe something like this:

---
Jump: Starting at first level, you can jump incredible distances. On your turn, you can use your action to jump in any combination of forward and up, to a maximum of 10 feet. The distance increases by 10 feet at level X, Y, and Z. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.

As part of this action, you can make a melee weapon attack at the end of the jump, adding XdY damage for every 10 feet travelled. If you jump vertically and the attack hits, you do not take falling damage.
---

You may want to include language that specifies you can't change horizontal direction during the jump (unless you're really going for some freaky anime stuff), that you immediately fall once you reach the apex of your jump, and that this movement does not count against your normal movement for your turn.

At level 2, I'd give them a fighting style of Defense, Great Weapon, Dueling, or Protection.

For level 3, I'd focus on a Lancet archetype and a Breath Weapon archetype. Sorry, you don't get both, that's the cost of building a class with too narrow a focus.

ASI as most classes, at 4th, 8th, etc. I wouldn't give them extra ASIs like fighter.

Extra attack at 5th.

Probably something like half falling damage at level 6, so missed attacks aren't death sentences. May coincide with increased jump distance.

Hope that gets you started with some ideas. Archetype abilities and levels 7-20 are on you.

I disagree with your premises here:

Mephista said:

But it seemed pretty clear that there was a kind of symmetry between this game and D&D's classes. A rogue is the best at using daggers, no doubt about it, and they're iconic for the class.

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Iconic? Maybe, but neither the best at using daggers (Monks are basically equivalent) nor, more importantly, are daggers best choice for rogues mechanically. They are just "less sub-optimal" than they might be for some other classes (again, except monks). And more than half of the rogues I've seen prefer bows/crossbows.

Barbarians do tend to use great axes (its even a design intention)...

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They do? It is? Sure, they get an extra die on crits which benefits from 1d12 vs. 2d6, but then again, so does Maul. And their Unarmored Defense is usable with a shield, so one could equally say that using a shield is a design intention.

Monks are known for their unarmed attacks.

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Well, sure...and they have a whole list of "monk weapons".

Paladins are the iconic sword and board users,

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Again, "iconic" perhaps, but in that case I would argue that fighters are also "iconic" sword & board users. There's no design mechanic nudging paladins toward sword and board, and we've all see way too many Polearm Master/Great Weapon Vengeance Pallies. (Not to mention too many dex build rapier paladins...)

just as Rangers are known for their archery (and, in 5e, get some bow-smites).

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I wish. The only thing pushing Rangers toward archery over melee is the same thing pushing rogues and fighters in the same direction: a general 5e bias toward archery.

The stereotypical life cleric uses a mace (basically a one handed hammer).

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Ok, so one sub-class tends toward mace because it is the highest damage, one-handed, simple melee weapon. But I think you're unduly influenced by earlier version of D&D in which clerics had to use blunt weapons because they didn't shed blood.

I am quibbling, but I'm not just being pedantic. This all bears on the premise of your thread:

TL;DR - So, curious minds inquiring. Ignore the Fighter and taking feats for now. What would you like to see in a Lancer themed class? What kind of archetype would you like to use? What kind of abilities? None of these have to be restricted to a spear, of course, but just some abilities that you think is iconic to a spear warrior in a fantasy setting.

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5e does not distinguish classes or sub-classes by a preference for a specific weapon. I'm not saying I agree with this design decision, but that's what it is. Therefore I don't think that a "Lancer" class or sub-class really fits with 5e.

On the other hand, a great question might be: "What kind of design tweak would make a Spear a better and interesting weapon choice, for a variety of classes?" If you are just trying to make Spears get used more often, I'm with you on that one. (cf. "The One Ring", in which spears are a completely viable choice.)

Nevvur said:

For level 3, I'd focus on a Lancet archetype and a Breath Weapon archetype. Sorry, you don't get both, that's the cost of building a class with too narrow a focus.

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Ouch! You had me, up until that point. Using Lancet to fuel your breath weapon is what modern dragooning is all about.

Personally, I would give a jumping archetype (which upgrades Jump into High Jump) and a breath archetype (which gives spell slots to be spent on dragon breath, and the Lancet ability to recover spell slots).

Saelorn said:

Ouch! You had me, up until that point. Using Lancet to fuel your breath weapon is what modern dragooning is all about.

Personally, I would give a jumping archetype (which upgrades Jump into High Jump) and a breath archetype (which gives spell slots to be spent on dragon breath, and the Lancet ability to recover spell slots).

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Ah, well, I didn't know that about modern dragoons! Your suggestion sounds reasonable, though spell slot recovery could make for multiclassing madness if not tightly capped.

Nevvur said:

Ah, well, I didn't know that about modern dragoons! Your suggestion sounds reasonable, though spell slot recovery could make for multiclassing madness if not tightly capped.

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You could use spell points, or breath points, or anything like that. Final Fantasy spellcasters haven't used spell slots since the first game; and even then, the remakes have all switched to generic MP.

On the other hand, the series has a long history with multiclassing Dragoon and a Mage class so that you would never run out of MP. There's even an NPC who boasts about it, in the fifth game. So if you really wanted to get into the Dragoon spirit, multiclassing well with spellcasters is still part of their identity.