D&D 5E Players Self-Assigning Rolls

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Notably, the rules go into this:

"In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking for the DM to determine your chance of success. For example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues, you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your Wisdom (Perception) check result. You would have to specify that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in order to have any chance of success." (Basic Rules, page 61)

So it seems to me that some reasonable level of specificity is the expectation here. Not that anyone's required to do that, of course. I just find that games tend to work better when played as intended (to the extent the game isn't a total mess).

Yeah, I hate it when I describe a room to the group and all I get is "I'm going to make a search check". No "I'm going to search the dresser, I'm going to search the bed, I'm going to check around the painting and see if it has a passage behind it...", etc. No attempt as a player to interact with the environment the DM described. It blows my mind since if they told me "I'm going to pull out the drawers and dump the contents on the floor and rummage though them" no skill check would be needed, as the key would be laying on the floor in front of them in that case.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Yeah, I hate it when I describe a room to the group and all I get is "I'm going to make a search check". No "I'm going to search the dresser, I'm going to search the bed, I'm going to check around the painting and see if it has a passage behind it...", etc. No attempt as a player to interact with the environment the DM described. It blows my mind since if they told me "I'm going to pull out the drawers and dump the contents on the floor and rummage though them" no skill check would be needed, as the key would be laying on the floor in front of them in that case.

Yeah, so they'd rather roll a swingy d20 than take a crack at auto-success which only requires paying attention and being reasonably specific.

It really makes very little sense to me in terms of a successful strategy over time.
 

redrick

First Post
Flavor Text
Good
iserith " I slowly look over the altar with my magnifying glass, knock three times on each blue gem, and spray silly string around the base looking for traps"
Rolls 3 adds 8 missing the DC
Bad
Iserith, " I lick my eyebrows. Wink at the Princess and say do you want to BEEP!"
Rolls 19 subtracts 1 passing the DC.
DM response
Good, " Your hand press down on a ivory rose causing the trap to trigger. Take 11 pts"
Bad, "groan. groan. Ok The Princess declines your off to BEEP but she is amused. You and one other of the group get a war horse upgrade for the quest.".
Some people are good at flavor text some you just groan when they open their mouths. While it is in the DM power to change the dc in favor of the good flavor text person, he should not. Why? Because Jasper can't flavor text to save his life.

I think this is just where different people do it differently. In this regard, D&D seems to straddle and support two approaches. Neither of which are wrong, just different.

What you are describing sounds like players, when faced with a situation, push a button on their character sheet. They then "flavor" that button push with some description, and the DM flavors the success or failure (based on a die roll and a pre-established DC) appropriately. I think there are tabletop RPGs that exist firmly in this camp — player actions are explicitly bounded by certain moves or abilities.

My goal when playing D&D is to have the player actions not be bounded by the buttons on their character sheet. The "flavor" as you describe is the thing. The skills on the character sheet are how we resolve the thing, if necessary, but the resolution of those skills will determined by the actual thing the players are describing. Does the character move through the room, rooting through piles of clothes, sticking their head under the bed, rooting through drawers? Or do they stand in the center of the room and try to apply Sherlock Holmesian deductive reasoning to spot faded footprints, fallen bits of ash, places where the side of the bed looks to be worn, or what have you? The former is going to be an easy check (or probably not a check at all), but might have consequences. (There is a grue under the bed. There is a giant centipede in the pile of clothes. Opening the dresser makes a loud creaking noise.) The latter would be a nearly impossible feat of Investigation, but might be possible for a Rogue with Expertise.

This approach should not be about punishing players who are less articulate than other players, or players who are unable to describe their actions in paragraph length prose. Most character actions can still be described in a simple sentence or two. I don't need to know that the player knows how to disarm a trap, or knows how to win an argument with a goblin about politics. I just need to know what the character is doing and what they are trying to accomplish. This approach does reward players who are imaginative and who are paying attention. I think that's ok. D&D is a game, and all approaches are going to reward something.

----EDITED TO ADD-----

For instance, if a PC crudely propositioned a princess, that roll would probably be to keep from getting their ass beat by a guard, thrown out onto the street face-first in the mud, or dragged into a dungeon.

PLAYER: I crudely proposition the princess.
DM: Umm, ok, give me a roll for Persuasion.
PLAYER: 19. -1. So that's an 18.
DM: The Princess smiles coldly. "You must be confused. I'm going to give you one more chance to tell me why you're here, or I will personally haul you by the ear to the edge of this town and throw you to the bears."
 
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Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Yeah, so they'd rather roll a swingy d20 than take a crack at auto-success which only requires paying attention and being reasonably specific.

It really makes very little sense to me in terms of a successful strategy over time.

Yep. My group is very old and it stuns me just how reliant on "make a skill check" they have become. Though I must admit it affected me too, we were going to run Tomb of Horrors 1e on an off night and we were struggling to remember how you did a search check in 1e before it came back to me that outside of certain thief abilities such a thing was not a thing back then. The player was expected to engage with what the DM described to them. 10+ years of D20 had really made us skill check reliant. Its easier and you don't have to pay attention, just roll your dice. Oh how I hate that.

Adding in a chance for failure is not a good strategy.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I just need to know what the character is doing and what they are trying to accomplish. This approach does reward players who are imaginative and who are paying attention. I think that's ok. D&D is a game, and all approaches are going to reward something.

In the age of smart phones and other distractions, it seems particularly wise in my view to incentivize paying attention.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
In the age of smart phones and other distractions, it seems particularly wise in my view to incentivize paying attention.

Yes, Yes, Yes! Reward players who pay attention and are constantly engaging the game with bonus XP. And if that leads to a PC getting better than his companions simply due to the player actually paying attention and playing the game all the better. Less twitter and more game play please!
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Yes, Yes, Yes! Reward players who pay attention and are constantly engaging the game with bonus XP. And if that leads to a PC getting better than his companions simply due to the player actually paying attention and playing the game all the better. Less twitter and more game play please!

I don't do bonus XP, but knowing that paying attention causes you to die less often and also possibly increases your treasure haul is pretty good I think.

My game tends to move fast, too. There's really no time for anyone to be doing anything else. Some of the players try to live tweet the game (which I don't mind) but it's hard for them to keep up with it.

Everyone at my table is pretty funny as well and I think there's an incentive to be paying attention so they can get in a well-timed joke or reference.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
....PLAYER: I crudely proposition the princess.
DM: Umm, ok, give me a roll for Persuasion.
PLAYER: 19. -1. So that's an 18.
DM: The Princess smiles coldly. "You must be confused. I'm going to give you one more chance to tell me why you're here, or I will personally haul you by the ear to the edge of this town and throw you to the bears."
Redrick you missed the point. Player 1 tries to say something nice. But from his mouth comes a crude proposition. Due to lack of social skills, off his meds, bad blood sugar, and etc.
 

5ekyu

Hero
My group are all of a sort who engage with each other and the game as the norm with lits of humor.

I try to mix mechanics, character and players along with the story on relatively even footing.

I find its always easy to find one skill/action/setup to make any approach spotlight as fine but as a GM i know that when i allow narration to trump mechanics **for some elements** it leads to those elements being undervalued.

Whether that is the player goid at social clues or the player who wants to detail to the minutiae every finger of his search scene, unless it can be applied to all the skills i tend to not let it outstrip the mechanics so far it is an autosuccess "strategy."

I would hate for instance, for the low search related skill character played by the detail focused descriptive player to be allowed to outshine the player who has a character with better search skills often enough for it to show as "good strategy" just because I as GM put in and setup enough challenges that made the character skill second best.

Since we dont have easy descriptive analogs for "i talk my way into an auto- success" for a lot of the skills I never thought it fair to so devalue or under represent points spent in those that do.

Not sure off the top of my head what an auto success worth pick pocket or arcana check description would be. But i am sure better GMs do.

But, fortunately the game supports many different style of gaming and games where you figure out the best "strategy" for "playing the GM" for auto success and games like mine can all be fun for thier respective crowds.





Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app
 

redrick

First Post
Redrick you missed the point. Player 1 tries to say something nice. But from his mouth comes a crude proposition. Due to lack of social skills, off his meds, bad blood sugar, and etc.

Sorry, maybe I am missing the point. Is the point that the player was trying to say, "I try to convince the Princess to give us some horses," but instead they say, "I lick my lips, wink at the Princess, and ask her if she wants to screw." And since they are rolling Persuasion, we are supposed to know, implicitly, that the character is actually trying to ask for help with their quest and adjudicate the roll as such?

Or is the player role-playing their character making a bad roll?

If the actions a player describes seem foolish enough, I might stop and say, "Wait, is that really what you are doing?" Usually, I slowly reach for the dice and allow the other players to say "wait what no really?". If the player says, "I attack the Princess," other players will probably try to intercede, which might be resolved out of character at the table or might be resolved in character with initiative rolls.

----EDITED TO ADD-----
Like, I'm getting my hackles up a little because I think the particular joke is tasteless, but I also think it does illustrate the point I'm trying to make. I'm not asking players to give me a complex treatise on what their player is doing. I'm just asking them to put a basic statement together, like, "I politely ask the Princess if she could supply us with some horses for our quest." It should be about as hard as not sexually harassing somebody.
 
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