Why not Wizard?

S

Sunseeker

Guest
This is the sort of arms race that would tear the setting apart, as real life industrialization did to Imperial Russia.

I don't have a particular problem with that either and that would provides a great backdrop to why we're in a post apocalyptic setting. Everyone practiced MAD (Magically Assured Destruction), we ended up with a magical nuclear war and bam! Post apocalyptic! Which in turn (as civilizations reestablish themselves) gives plenty of in-setting reason to why magic use is restricted, magic users are policed and why every two-bit poet isn't singing magical songs! Perhaps we are at the great pinnacle of magical living and the world slowly coming apart at the seams (literally and metaphorically) is the shadow over the actions of the players.
 

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Phion

Explorer
A level 1 character is already a minor hero and someone regarded as skilled, it may not feel like this at times due to the gaming rules but that's the flavour.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That's really the feeling I've been getting. If the NPCs get to play by the PCs rules, then we'll end up with a high-magic society in short order (by "short order" I mean a couple generations).

If the NPC's are only playing by the PC rules, my expectation would be for society to collapse completely. As practical matter, the PC rules suggest that the only way to level up is to kill things in situations where doing so involves real risk of mortal loss and serious injury. That is to say, if we assume the rules for PC's apply to everything and everyone, the implication is that no one can actually learn anything beyond the most basic level of skill and knowledge without killing something and risking being killed.

That is to say, you couldn't gain more than rudimentary knowledge of blacksmithing, carpentry, law, psychology, diplomacy, and so forth without someone in some community dying. The result would be spiraling disasters of warfare where everyone died at an early age and the population of everything crashed uncontrollably. Or if the society evolved to pacifism to protect itself, then it would be left bereft of advanced knowledge (much less the ability to protect itself) and would get destroyed by something else. As Dandu put it, if murder equals improvement in calculus, then the implication is that there isn't much use a university, and the only knowledgeable people in the world are pit fighters, gladiators, and gang leaders.

So I think it is very clear that the demographics of the NPCs doesn't mimic the demographics of the PC's, and the path that they are using for advancement in the world (practicing a trade, going to school, studying lore in a library, etc.) is not the one the PC's are using but is if not as time efficient, one that is safer and more productive in the long run. Yes, the D&D world does appear to work on the principle, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.", but it also appears that most NPCs are being successful in life without doing what the PC's do.

I also note that in my current 6 year long campaign, there have been 11 PC's that permanently died out of six players. Only one character has survived since 1st level, and is now 10th level. Even that character recently died but was raised from the dead. NPC's with less advantages than PC's would die at an even higher rate. It's not clear to me how many characters could actually reach high level in my game using the PC rules, as if I had made everyone start over at 1st level the game not only could not have gone on, but it's doubtful there would be any or many high level spellcasters at all. And certainly in my game world, high level NPC's are rare. At about the mid point of the game, the PC's killed an 8th level Wizard (the apprentice of the BBEG). At that point, that wizard was the second highest level spellcaster in an entire nation of some 400,000 people. He was pursuing the 'PC path' of leveling up by adventuring. The highest level spellcaster in the nation was an octogenarian 10th level Wizard who had pursued a largely scholarly path, and who would presumably soon be dead.

It is equally interesting what systems wouldn't develop if every two-big cleric/druid/whatever could "create water". Would plumbing even be a thing?

I very much concur that the big effects of magic are the economic ones that D&D has historically underpriced because the level and effects of spells were typically balanced according to gamist concerns, where the default game assumption was going down into a lair, kicking the doors down, and taking their stuff.

For world building purposes, that's not good enough, and so problems like 'Create Food & Water' or 'Fabricate' do have to be dealt with if you don't want massive implications for the game world. Still, just as 'Create Food & Water' generally only allow the PC cleric to support himself and the party (both fellow PC's and their steeds and henchmen), it's quite likely that such spells only normally support the cleric and his staff and that moreover reliance on them makes the cleric less able to perform his other duties. Your bigger worry are actual items like everflowing jugs and lyres of building. Such items need to be either prohibited or else made much rarer and more expensive.

Would larger societies be more environmentally sustainable?

Oh no, quite the opposite. Unrestricted magic would almost certainly destroy the environment and the world in rather short order. Sustainability is based on a balance of intakes and outtakes. The net change on the overall system should be zero. As best as we can tell on the small scale descriptions that we have, D&D magic does not provide for sustainability. Magic can permanently add new features to the system, or permanently remove the. Mass and energy can be actually destroyed, or introduced or banished from the system. You can conjure new things into being or send them to other universes. You can actually disintegrate things or polymorph them into things with less or higher mass and a wholly different chemical composition. If this ability isn't vanishingly rare, or there isn't some undisclosed balancing feature to this, in the long run - say a few thousand years - the world is doomed.

One of the assumptions of my game world is that those undisclosed balancing features do exist, and among them is that magic is vastly more dangerous than it is presented in the D&D books. Spells do work like that on the small scale, but magic applied on a wider scale (either in time or space) has second order effects that only become noticeable over time because they are subtle. The analogy I use is that all magic is radioactive, but small amounts of radiation (the dose you get flying in an airplane, eating a banana, living in a brick house, etc.) aren't generally noticeable. It's only when you begin to concentrate the effects that weirdness starts happening. Adventurers wandering from place to place might notice the effects of magical pollution, but because they are generally engaged only in instantaneous effects and wandering from place to place they don't generally notice the consequences of their own spell-casting. If on the other hand, you tried to build an entire city with 'Wall of Stone' spells, not only would someone show up to tell you how bad an idea this was, but the consequences would likely be terrible if you persisted.

Besides which, spells exist in my homebrew setting that undo the effects of creation magic like 'Wall of Stone', so an enemy could just dispel your walls as quickly as you raised them.

I mean I think one of the biggest appeals of the Drow/Underdark setting for me is that they're a society that specifically breeds for powerful magic users.

I feel I should disclose that I find the Drow poorly conceived, and that as I imagine them they are very different than the Gygaxian conception (and even more different from the Salvatore conception). For Gygax, the drow existed for gamist reasons (high level characters needed a suitable foe more powerful than orcs).

Exactly what assumptions you make about magic and D&D society will lead you to very different settings. The setting I prefer and use assumes the ubiquity of low level magic (because the hurdles of obtaining enough skill to cast a cantrip or a 1st level spell seem fairly small), but assumes the rarity and scarcity of high world changing level magic (because the hurdles of reaching 12th level are huge). If you make different assumptions, then you get different results (at least, if you care to explore the implications of yours choices). Those results aren't wrong, but they do end up resulting in a world very different than anything that is familiar or historical. Taken to an extreme, you'll end up with a society without plumbing, roads, and all sorts of things we consider normal just because the technology in use is so different than our own. Good luck imagining all of that.
 
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pming

Legend
Hiya!

"D&D" is awfully vague when asking that question (the OP). Why? Because edition matters.

Basic D&D (BECMI or B/X): The world has Immortals who frequently meddle in the affairs of morals. Oh, and there are a LOT of Immortals. PC's can actually become Immortals (BECM-Immortals). Because of this, immortals, and even just really high level PC's (as in, oh, 26th to 36th level) will take an active role in "shaping" society to what they want. On top of that, "adventurers" are sort of surmised to be the people that go out and gain levels the 'quick' way (adventuring). The laws of the multiverse dictate that if you sit at home and do your thing...even if it is a 'class thing' (and all demihumans are their own class, btw...)...it will take you a lifetime to even get to 10th level, give or take. If you go adventuring, you gain that experience MUCH faster because, well, gravity, speed of light, law of thermodynamics, law of experience gaining. All "natural laws of the multiverse".

1e (but not necessarily 2e): Everyone is 0-level, has an average stat of 9 or 10, and has about 2 to 4 hps. NOBODY can "gain XP" unless you are of an adventuring class. Adventuring classes have prime requisite requirements. The core four have the lowest - just a 9 in Str, Dex, Wis or Int (Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Magic-User). All other classes have higher stat requirements. And when stats are rolled 3d6, IN ORDER...*and* if you have a certain stat that is really low (like 6, or 5 or lower) it can PREVENT you from learning a class (or force you into another, more specifically). So if you have a Str of 14, but a Dex of 5, "the character can ONLY be a cleric". If your wisdom was only 8, you are ineligible to be any 'class'. Period. Go home and tend the farm.

On top of that, with 1e, there were class and level limits based on your race and your stats (as of Unearthed Arcana). If you were a demihuman, there were class limits for some (as in there are no halfling clerics...can't remember of UA allowed them). So there was that as a factor. Only rare people could even be a F, C, MU or T...and then only if they had the opportunity and desire.

Next lets layer on that 0-level thing. In order to even START contemplating a class, you had to be "special". You could have 15 in every stat...but never be any class because you are 0-level as an NPC. The exact ratio of 0-level to potential class level of NPC's was entirely up to the DM to decide for his own campaign world. Old EGG himself obviously had a more 'restrained' view in how many commoners could become class-level NPC's, and good ol' Greybeard Greenwood had a more 'generous' view in that. Both were playing 1e.

I don't have much experience with 2e, but this is where we started to see a LOT more of the "well, anyone could become a cleric if they just put effort into it". Anyway, I'll level the 2e experts to that.

3e: Only about 3 years (if I include Pathfinder) experience here, but THIS EDITION is the one that started the whole "anything can be any class and add any number of other classes" tomfoolery.

If you learned "D&D" using 3e, 4e or Pathfinder...then I would totally expect a question as the OP posed. In short, there is absolutely ZERO reason why the campaign world hasn't imploded. Well, other than the underlying requirement of all players and DM's to religiously accept the mantra of "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!". Honestly, this is one of the major reasons why I never respected the 3.x/PF systems and disliked them...even when I was enjoying myself playing it. It's like seeing a choice of 3 burgers; cheap/crappy one, average one, and excellent one...but the person making the burgers only has ingredients for the first two. You choose the average one, but are always thinking..."Man, this is ok and all, but it would be so-o much better if it had the Excellent Ingredients...". Same thing with me (us/my group) and 3.x+. "Nice system, overall, but man, it sure would be nice if..."

5e: Ahhh...here we go. Current edition of the game. Played up until about 7 months ago (not sure how many years that is...since the Starter Set). It's a bit of a mix between 1e and 3e. It seems to want to have a 1e outlook, overall, but then it doesn't really have any actual 'restrictions' other than listing some stuff as Optional (Feats, Multiclassing, and some stuff in DMG). Reading the DMG I get the feeling that it's taking the general 1e attitude of "commoners are just that...commoners; they don't have classes, but they can have skills and stuff". Looking at some of the 'monsters' in the back of the books tell us that much. A "bandit" is a person, but with some special skills. A "cultist" is NOT a cleric...he is a commoner with some special skills. To me, this is pretty much dead on with BECMI and even 1e.

But then we have no actual restrictions for creation of PC's. Any race, any class, any level. Casting spells? Here's a component pouch. Off you go! This directly points to a more 3e mind set; "anyone can do that!...".

So how do we reconcile those two drastically different 'outlooks'? Well, IMHO, always err on the side of being stingy or saying "no". It's easy to give more or say yes later than it is for everyone (especially players....doubly so for players who are 'power gamers') to have to "give up" stuff. So saying "Only Humans, and only Fighters, Clerics, Magic-Users and Thieves in this campaign" is VASTLY superior a choice than saying "Anything from any of the WotC books". If we assume the former, players may be naturally assuming that being a F, MU, T or C is "common" or "easier" to learn and improve. The assumption is that everyone is a commoner...except for a few folks who are of those four key classes. If/when the DM introduces "Druids and Barbarians can be chosen now", it expands the choices without opening the flood gates.

Right. Now, imho, the OP's question, in regards to 5e, I would have to answer thus: PC's are special. Unless you are a special PC or special NPC, nobody can learn a class. You have to be born with the capability to earn XP. Some NPC's can learn skills and abilities, however, that sets them apart from 'normal' commoners. NPC's like Acolytes, Cultists, Pirates, etc, are not 'classes'; they are commoners who learned special stuff due to their life.

In this regards, it would then be easy for the DM to just assume that no, Phil the architect can not just "take a year and learn magic", and no, the governments can't train tax collectors to Detect Lie. And before you ask, no, YOU can't teach the stable hand to be a first level fighter so he can come on adventures with you.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

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