D&D 5E Stalker0's Xanathar Spell Ratings

Li Shenron said:

Just a note... I think the whole idea of "passing the Fireball test" has a problem: Mearls or Crawford have mentioned that Fireball is purposefully better than it should be for its level, because they wanted the possibly most iconic D&D spell to be also the best.

Click to expand...

Well then they shouldn't make pure damage spells that are just worse than what has already been released, because all that does is put a tax on flavor/fluff for the "ice mage" trying to stay in theme. Snowball Storm could have had a rider effect to make up for being meh damage. Instead its basically just a garbage spell.

If nothing else can compete with fireball on damage, stop making spells that only deal damage.

Warmaster Horus said:

I think the RAW and RAI line up pretty well here.



First you have the intent that the bound creature can be summoned by another spell. Then you have the duration of the summoning spell becomes the duration of the this spell. Those two together makes it very likely that Planar Binding is indeed a conduit for using summoning spells to bring in targets.

And yeah, it has the potential to get very broken. As a DM in my home game I'd probably just allow you to have one Planar Bound creature at a time even though that's not in the text of the rule.

Click to expand...

Simultaneously arguing the RAW is intentionally very broken and then not using it yourself does not make for a very compelling argument...

My entire point here is that one round deficiency is the loophole that allows even a DM determined not to use any house rules to stop this demon army.

Of course, it would have been infinitely better if the spell actually worked as intended while still barring abuse.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Iry said:

It's safe to say the overwhelming majority of DM's would allow this spell combination, and for the outliers there is always the Divine Soul who can extend their spells. The combo was even allowed in our local AL games.

Summon Greater/Lesser Demon have an interesting quirk as well. They stick around for 1d6 rounds after you end your concentration on them, which you can do right before you finish casting Planar Binding. Infernal Calling doesn't work as well, but since you don't have to issue commands you can wait until the last couple of rounds, then issue your commands and hoping to fail to get an extra 3d6 minutes. That loophole stinks like stilton, but the Greater/Lesser option is pretty solid.

Now, allowing a player to build a whole army of demons is a different issue entirely.

Click to expand...

Perhaps these spells are different from back when this was first discussed?

Still, I really don't see the point of having an argument that leads to an broken-as-hell possibility.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

ehren37 said:

Well then they shouldn't make pure damage spells that are just worse than what has already been released, because all that does is put a tax on flavor/fluff for the "ice mage" trying to stay in theme. Snowball Storm could have had a rider effect to make up for being meh damage. Instead its basically just a garbage spell.

If nothing else can compete with fireball on damage, stop making spells that only deal damage.

Click to expand...

Of course then everyone would be complaining of power creep. So WotC is damned if they do and damned if they don't. I'm fine with spells that don't stack up to fireball in every way. Fire resistance is common and the area of effect for fireball can make deploying it a problem for non-Evokers.

ehren37 said:

Well then they shouldn't make pure damage spells that are just worse than what has already been released, because all that does is put a tax on flavor/fluff for the "ice mage" trying to stay in theme. Snowball Storm could have had a rider effect to make up for being meh damage. Instead its basically just a garbage spell.

If nothing else can compete with fireball on damage, stop making spells that only deal damage.

Click to expand...

I see your point,but you're only looking at the spell "menu" from the players' point of view.

Granted, that's what this thread is about. But you're not just talking about rating the spells red; you're questioning their very existence.

But the secret is, plenty of spells can be crappy for player characters and still be justified in the game.

Just a single example: Power Word Kill.

For PCs you only get this at the very high 17th level, where most dangerous foes are CR 20 or more. And (paraphrasing Treeantmonk) why not just do 100 points of damage?

So for a PC this a very questionable spell pick.

For monsters, however, the situation is completely different. While monsters mostly rely on lots of hit points, many PCs don't, especially dangerous spell casters. Player characters are some of the most dangerous entities in all of the multiverse, if you look at danger per hit point!

And a CR 17 monster could meet, say level 13 heroes.

A PWK here is looking much more appealing!


That was just one example, and one based on mechanics and efficiency. Actually most justifications are based on theme. There needs to be level 3 cold spells so a winter hag, say, have something to cast at you.

And in order for Fireball to actually come across as better, it needs spells it actually is better than!

That said - none of this is to be taken to justify coming up with loads of actually crappy spells that noone can make use of.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Warmaster Horus said:

Of course then everyone would be complaining of power creep. So WotC is damned if they do and damned if they don't. I'm fine with spells that don't stack up to fireball in every way. Fire resistance is common and the area of effect for fireball can make deploying it a problem for non-Evokers.

Click to expand...

A spell that does less damage but makes the floor difficult terrain isnt necessarily power creep. There are so many things they can do other than pure damage, at this point it just feels lazy. Making a spell that's essentially "bad fireball" is a waste of ink at this point. We don't need the 1st level "icicle spray - just like burning hands, but now with d4's instead of d6's!" Why not instead 3d4 cold and no reaction for 1 turn on a failed save? Just to pump out content that requires next to no playtesting because its numerically inferior to what already exists?

They only release a few new spells a year. They should have more to offer than merely a new damage type, but most of these don't. To me, that's dull.

Stalker0 said:

Holy Weapon - 3
As cool as this looks, there are a lot of nice spells that vie for the paladin's concentration slot, and this one just doesn't seem all that amazing.

Click to expand...

The damage math actually works out pretty nicely on this one. Compare this weapon buff to the damage of the Paladin's strongest 5th-level Smite (Banishing Smite), assume 65% hit rate:

5d10/(.65*2d8) = 27.5/(.65*9) = 4.7

So basically, as long as you attack 5 times with the weapon you buffed, on average you'll make it worth the spell slot in terms of damage. A Paladin will get that in the middle of the 3rd round of combat. If you have advantage or some other to-hit buff, you get your slot's worth even sooner than that. Plus the thing lasts a full hour.

It's also a bonus action to cast so it's better on the action economy.

Or better yet, you can actually touch an ally's weapon with this spell, instead. Cast it on the Fighter's weapon before he Action Surges ...

Honestly, this is probably one of the most cost-efficient damage buffs in the game until Foresight.

Stalker0 said:

Immolation - 3
Fails my fireball threshold. The damage takes too long to kick in for a single target spell that costs concentration. Also the targets you are likely going to want to use it on generally have the best saves, so getting them to fail multiple times is unlikely.

Vitriolic Sphere - 3
Just doesn't quite make the fireball threshold for me. If the secondary damage was also halfed instead of lost, than it would be solid.

Click to expand...

While I agree these are sub-par as player choices, each can be a solid choice for the bad guys. Why? Because both can cause ongoing damage if the target misses their save. And ongoing damage equals failed death saves if the character is dropped. Further, immolation turns the target to ash if it causes the damage that kills the target.

I used vitriolic sphere against a mid-level party in PotA. I didn't expect much from it, but two characters blew their saves, both dropping due to initial damage. The follow-up damage caused each to take a failed death save. The remaining party members scrambled to stabilize them, giving the bad guy more time to pound them with other spells. The party ended up retreating to avoid a TPK.

This isn't an issue when PCs sling spells at NPCs, as the rules generally assume bad guys die when they reach zero hit points. But for PCs, who make death saves, any spell with ongoing damage has an extra element of danger.

CapnZapp said:

My entire point here is that one round deficiency is the loophole that allows even a DM determined not to use any house rules to stop this demon army.

Click to expand...

If you are interested in messing up the plans of demon summoner PCs, you should consider the Vargouille. It canonically sneaks in on the backs of other summoned demons, and then flies out of the containment circle, causing general havoc in the vicinity. Which can either be attacking the summoner, the local townsfolk (who will alert the proper authorities) or just breaking the magic containment circle that was set up for the real summoned target.

Leatherhead said:

If you are interested in messing up the plans of demon summoner PCs, you should consider the Vargouille. It canonically sneaks in on the backs of other summoned demons, and then flies out of the containment circle, causing general havoc in the vicinity. Which can either be attacking the summoner, the local townsfolk (who will alert the proper authorities) or just breaking the magic containment circle that was set up for the real summoned target.

Click to expand...

I really should not have to mess with my players just to stop them from using spells as written.

You have a cool story idea, but the spell remains badly balanced if it allows a demon army at just a grand a pop.