Are Prestige Classes Really Necessary?

Kannik · Mar 6, 2002

Yes, because...

Are prestige classes necessary? I would argue yes, but for a reason that is amusing when you consider their name and origination -- they are necessary to gain abilities or to take the character beyond the very limitation of a class- based system. Sure, one can multi-class, but even then there are abilities/capabilities that are not represented in the base classes and/or one may pick up a bunch of stuff that they don't want and do not fit with their character concept.

Have prestige classes been implemented _well_ in the various supplements (both WotC and others)? Thats a whole other issue, and I would say no, for we have a bunch of classes that are at times too powerful, offer combinations of things that could be gained from simple multi-classing, don't offer enough originality or difference, etc.

Others have already pointed out PrCs that work or are necessary (duellist for the agile fighter, lasher for whip users, those who use magic just that little bit differently, organizations that confer benififts, etc).

To get rid of the need for PrCs DnD would have to become a classless system where one could build up their characters as they like, or at least a system that offered way more options than are currently given. We wouldn't need a fighter class, duellist class, lasher class, gladiator class, etc class if the base fighter-type offered more options in customizability so that one could choose between heavy armour usage or dextrous parry and dodge, for example.

We could keep the classes, but make them more flexible (and make it even easier/etc to multiclass).

Else we'd be playing the Hero system. }:>

Kannik

kenjib · Mar 6, 2002

People keep mentioning the duellist class as an example of a good PRC. However, why shouldn't the duellist archetype just be covered by a group of feats? It's just a fighter with a different focus. All of these fighter variations don't need to be PRCs, like duellist, lasher, master of chains, cavalier, order of the bow initiate, etc. I think that's precisely what feats are for and the exact reason that the fighter gets so many of them.

That's one of my complaints with prestige classes but I know that many disagree.

Desdichado · Mar 6, 2002

Just as a devil's advocate type post here, how about the algai'd'siswai core class in Wheel of Time? Shouldn't that be a prestige class? If they can do it there, why not in homebrew D&D?

jollyninja · Mar 6, 2002

i completley agree that the sword and fist prestige classes are pretty weak and could simply have been feat chains. except for the warmaster, but it is really campaign specific. at least the organizational aspect aka the whole point of the class is. the tempest (MotW) is however the worst offender, all it is is a bunch of bonus feats and two or three (don't have the book with me) class specific abilities that could just as easily have been feats. verry hard to get ones mind you but feats none the less. this class is munchkin to it's verry core. i want more feats, fewer prestige classes, let me customeise my character, not follow your possibly lame feat path.

i usually only end up taking 3-4 levels in a prestige class because after that they become redundant (bonus of +1 to thing you got 3 levels ago) or no longer fit my character as well as it once did.

as for martial arts styles, i hate them, they unbalance things. i like balance.

Psion · Mar 7, 2002

Re: Oriental Adventures Martial Arts Styles

WaterRabbit said:
IMHO, the implementation of martial arts styles makes more sense than the current proliferation of prestige classes.

I really disagree. That is one of the things that kept me from giving OA a 5/5 rating.

First off, you are limited in the number of styles you can make before it becomes too much of a freebie. The more different styles you make, the higher your chance that you will qualify for two or more of them with little effort, and with no justification in the game.

Just take a look at some old foreign martial arts flicks someday. (Come to think of it, many modern American martial arts flicks fit this pattern, too.) The typical syndrome is of a character who has some fighting ability, who meets some master or some school, and goes through some trials before he can become a student of the master. Those students who are not good enough don't qualify. This SO fits the prestige class model.

Tsyr · Mar 7, 2002

Joshua Dyal said:
Just as a devil's advocate type post here, how about the algai'd'siswai core class in Wheel of Time? Shouldn't that be a prestige class? If they can do it there, why not in homebrew D&D?

I dunno. I've actualy thought that should have been a prestige class in the first place. But to contine the thread of playing devil's advocate, as I recall from the books, algai'd'siswai are trained from a very young age... I guess that would let them be a core class.

Jerrid Al-Kundo · Mar 7, 2002

Well, to start, I don't think they are necessary. I certainly played for years without them, and was playing 3E for almost a year before I decided to use them in my campaign.

As it is, I can't really say how well the printed Pclasses are made or handled since every Pclass in my campaign was made for my campaign.

Of course, I changed several of the Core Classes as well, including just flat-out removing some that didn't fit the campaign (godless campaign world=very few clerics).

So, there are two questions to ask yourself as a DM:

1. Can the use of Pclasses hieghten your game without being too much effort to include.

2. If yes, what Pclasses (published or home-brewed) fit in your world.

I myself keep Pclasses rare, even amongst NPCs. They require group affiliation (which have duties and responsibilities), intense training (home-brew training rules in place), and/or secret and possibly forbidden lore (research times and difficult possibly followed by additional training to use said knowledge).

Troll's Choice · Mar 7, 2002

Hi, everyone! Holy cats again, I'm amazed again by all the spirited replies.

I hope I'm not misrepresenting my views. I like prestige classes. I simply believe that toned down versions of some of them could be created for character classes. These classes would have to fit roles not already obviously covered by the base character classes. Of course, balance is key.

Kannik, you mention that a classless system would be a necessary side effect of this. My reply would be: look at the samurai, paladin, or even the druid. They could almost be prestige classes, though they perform admirably as character classes.

Jerrid Al-Kundo says that prestige classes are rare. It makes sense, though it may depend on the specifics of the campaign.

I just think to myself that if the prestige classes were transformed into character classes, they could still be rare. They could, in fact, be considered variant character classes.

The paladin is a character class, but it's still considered "rare" and elite" in my campaign. It's something to think about.

Anyway, thank you everyone for sharing your views! I'm at my friends house, and we're gonna play some Rune. So I'll talk to y'all later!

hong · Mar 7, 2002

Re: Re: Oriental Adventures Martial Arts Styles

Psion said:
I really disagree. That is one of the things that kept me from giving OA a 5/5 rating.

First off, you are limited in the number of styles you can make before it becomes too much of a freebie. The more different styles you make, the higher your chance that you will qualify for two or more of them with little effort, and with no justification in the game.

I don't think that's a major problem -- for one, real-life martial artists are often proficient in many styles. Besides, as written, the class that can qualify easiest for martial arts mastery (the monk) doesn't have that many feats to play with anyway. By the time you manage to get a couple of styles mastered, you're probably 16th or higher level. At that level, it seems entirely reasonable to have characters who are masters of several styles.

Just take a look at some old foreign martial arts flicks someday. (Come to think of it, many modern American martial arts flicks fit this pattern, too.) The typical syndrome is of a character who has some fighting ability, who meets some master or some school, and goes through some trials before he can become a student of the master. Those students who are not good enough don't qualify. This SO fits the prestige class model.

There's no reason you can't have both (although the number of martial artist PrCs is a bit lacking at the moment). The mastery rules might cover stuff that's more widely taught or known about, and the PrC features "secret knowledge" that's only taught to a few trusted disciples. The problem is finding enough funky abilities to fill up 10 levels worth of advancement, and still fit the flavour of the style.

hong · Mar 7, 2002

Joshua Dyal said:
Just as a devil's advocate type post here, how about the algai'd'siswai core class in Wheel of Time? Shouldn't that be a prestige class? If they can do it there, why not in homebrew D&D?

IMO, the paladin _is_ a prestige class done up as a core class.