D&D 5E Making Intelligence Less of a Dump Stat

Sadras · Jan 18, 2018

schnee said:
I remember 3rd edition too. All those +2s everywhere.

True, it is confusing for some.
Although to be fair I'm not advocating 3e - I'm advocating for a mechanic called Lesser Advantage.

Yeah, that's what happens with the variable rule. But our table didn't want the game to become 'keep a spare backpack with the same stuff back at camp to replace the ones you dropped when you fled the TPK' which has the knock-on effect of forcing them to spend more, keep more detailed lists of stuff, buy horses to carry that stuff, and then hire retainers to guard the horses and the extra stuff.

We did that in AD&D. It was a much more logistical game. It was fun for us, at the time, but not for most now. Times have changed.

Look I get it, not everyone enjoys spending money on equipment, purchasing horses and hiring retainers. :erm:

And then you wonder why we have so many threads on Enworld where the PCs have amassed so much treasure and coin and they don't know how to spend it.

KahlessNestor · Jan 19, 2018

Pretty sure +1 and +2 are part of the normal, RAW rules. I'm AFB, so can't look it up, but I certainly use them at times. No need for a new rule.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app

schnee · Jan 21, 2018

Sadras said:
True, it is confusing for some.
Although to be fair I'm not advocating 3e - I'm advocating for a mechanic called Lesser Advantage.

I'm advocating against it. The game is still too complicated and fidgety. My newer players are barely holding on.

Sadras said:
Look I get it, not everyone enjoys spending money on equipment, purchasing horses and hiring retainers.

And then you wonder why we have so many threads on Enworld where the PCs have amassed so much treasure and coin and they don't know how to spend it.

Well, the issue isn't the spending of the money, the issue is that all that logistics becomes un-fun. Many (and I'd bet most) people play games to get away from their boring accountant gigs and household budgets, not to re-create it in another context.

Besides, that's a non-issue. If they want to spend it... tithe a church, or spend it on magical research, or fund the local militia, or bribe the thieves' guild, or seeding rumors, or paying operatives to go find new rumors. Or, just classic Fafnir/Grey Mouser carousing. There are as many ways to spend money in-game that don't rely on creating additional paperwork and inertia as there are players. If they can't spend it, that's their lack of imagination.

I mean, you can't exactly Teleport or Plane Shift if you have a ton of extra personnel. A certain kind of flexibility and world-spanning pace goes right out the window. You say the answer is mo 'add horses and retainers and stuff!' I counter with 'give me a Bag of Holding and a plot that revolves more around intrigue than cargo.'

Sadras · Jan 21, 2018

schnee said:
I'm advocating against it. The game is still too complicated and fidgety. My newer players are barely holding on.

I would then suggest that you switch to the basic game (no feats), eliminate skills altogether or play one of the background skill variants, keep to low level and perhaps low magic.

Or you could instead play a simpler roleplaying game, there is always the Moldvay Basic.

But to be clear, I'm not imposing another mechanic on your table. If you recall I was merely conversing with another fellow poster who shared a similar outlook to mine when you decided to interrupt with a snide remark.

Well, the issue isn't the spending of the money, the issue is that all that logistics becomes un-fun. Many (and I'd bet most) people play games to get away from their boring accountant gigs and household budgets, not to re-create it in another context.

I agree to a degree. And that is why the encumbrance test is relatively quick. Our table has established that they are all encumbered (usually), especially if they are carrying provisions and a full waterskin.
We don't track every purchase, we deduct a x amount of gold/daily and assume that the weapons are kept sharpened, their healing kits and quivers are replenished, their armour is maintained and their clothing is all sewn and of good quality. It only becomes an issue if they are away from civilisation for an extended time.
And it is mostly paperless - we use Obsidian Portal.

I mean, you can't exactly Teleport or Plane Shift if you have a ton of extra personnel.

You sound like an extremist.
So if someone possesses a backpack, they need a ton of extra personnel to carry it?

You say the answer is mo 'add horses and retainers and stuff!' I counter with 'give me a Bag of Holding and a plot that revolves more around intrigue than cargo.'

Again with the extremism.
Apparently keeping an extra backpack of clothing requires 'horses and retainers' and even if one is playing with such you cannot incorporate horses and retainers with an intriguing adventure? Those two might be incompatible at your table but not mine.

Sadras · Jan 21, 2018

KahlessNestor said:
Pretty sure +1 and +2 are part of the normal, RAW rules. I'm AFB, so can't look it up, but I certainly use them at times. No need for a new rule.

That sounds reasonable, we have just decided to give it a name Lesser Advantage, however @schnee says this +2 reminds him of 3.e and his newer players are struggling to comprehend the 5e rules as they are. His comment implies this +2 rule would break them.

KahlessNestor · Jan 22, 2018

Complicated and fidgety isn't something I've ever heard 5e called. But then I also play Pathfinder, so eh. *shrugs*

77IM · Jan 22, 2018

KahlessNestor said:
Complicated and fidgety isn't something I've ever heard 5e called. But then I also play Pathfinder, so eh. *shrugs*

I'll call it that, too. I play at a game store and we get frequent noobs and there are still a lot of confusing little rules that bite people in the rear. Bonus actions, Extra Attack, Hit Dice, and heaven forbid the noob try to play a spellcaster...

Those of us who frequent forums and participate in design discussions like "how to make Int less of a dump stat" are the lucky ones: we grasp rules really well. Most people just show up to roll some dice and kill some goblins.

77IM · Jan 22, 2018

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I thought of another way to make Int matter to every character: make Int the governing stat for mundane livelihood, like craft, profession, finding your way around town, etc. Examples:
- You can reduce lifestyle expenses with an Int check.
- You can speed up downtime activities with an Int check.
- You can retcon equipment purchases with a Int check when you are out in the field.
- Your papers are in order with an Int check.
- You remembered to pay your taxes last year with an Int check.
- You can repair and maintain your equipment with an Int check.

The idea is to find a realm of activity that's about as common as Athletics and Persuasion (which are the activities that prevent Str and Cha from becoming total dump stats). Lore skills and Investigation don't cut it because it's too easy to rely on teammates for those activities.

CleverNickName · Jan 23, 2018

It's not merely the skill and ability challenges that prevent Strength and Charisma from becoming dump stats; there is a fair amount of crunch mechanics layered on top of them as well...combat ability, spellcasting ability, and a large percentage of save throws. Intelligence has the fewest number of save throws, and near-zero impact on combat (unless you are playing one of three very specific class-archetype combinations).

For most RP situations, it's sufficient to have one one intelligent character in the party...someone who can make any History/Arcana/Whatever checks when needed, do research for the party during downtime, make sure everyone's papers are in order and their taxes are paid before they set off on that grand quest, etc. With such a character (or even an NPC) in the party, everyone else can easily ignore it.

The best and most thorough way to make Intelligence more important would be to have more save throws depend on Intelligence, and to somehow make the number of skills and languages a character knows depend on Intelligence. But that is too big of a change to handle with a house rule, at least for me. I don't trust myself enough to rewrite a ton of spells, game mechanics, and monster attacks.

Mad_Jack · Jan 24, 2018

Ever since 1st Ed. I've always played with the rule that you can speak an additional number of languages equal to your intelligence modifier, provided that you can give some sort of narrative justification for why the character knows them (Uncle Morty fought in the Troll Wars, and used to swear at me in Orcish when I was a kid!).
For 5E, I'd probably extend that to one additional language or tool proficiency per point of Int. mod., or maybe even one language and one tool proficiency.
I suppose I might even go as far as saying that having a positive Int. Mod. gave you one free skill, or at least allowed you to add one additional skill to your class list. As always, subject to plausible narrative justification.