D&D 5E Wizard Spells

My questions are should I allow this? If I do allow it how should I handle it?
The traditional explanation is that wizards guard their secrets jealously, because power is relative and letting someone else learn your spells will make you relatively less powerful.

It's hard to reconcile that with a world where you have mage colleges, and dozens (or hundreds!) of apprentice wizards who are all learning the same spells. If you want to go the Hogwarts route, then all common spells (whatever that means) can be found in the library. Gaining entrance to the library, if you're not a student, might involve a small daily fee. You would also have to pay the cost of fancy inks, which amounts to 50gp per level of the spell.
 

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Here's a scenario I want to avoid: you're starting a new campaign and TWO players want to both play Wizards. "Hey, Bob, let's make sure we don't take any of the same spells...ever...because we can always just copy from each other."

Assuming these wizards have been watching each other’s backs in life and death situations for a level or two, why *wouldn’t* they do exactly that? I would be weird not to. The rules haven’t discouraged PCs trading spells since AD&D, and for good reason: because wizards are supposed to be able to learn spells. It is a benefit to the party overall. And it isn’t free (might be nice if the party split the cost with the wizard in fact).

With your typical NPCs it’s a completely different story. Very few wizards would let you borrow their sole spellbook. Something might happen to it. I don’t let people borrow my computer or car in general. Now if I trusted both their motive and their competence, *and* knew they could easily replace it if they broke it, then that would be a different story. But if you are borrowing a spellbook you almost certainly can’t easily replace it if you lose/break it, or you wouldn’t be borrowing one in the first place because of how the mechanics work.

So in order to find someone who lets you copy from their spellbook, you need someone who has a spare spellbook for that purpose. And ideally, it’s their third book (after their backup copy). So they have money. They also want to protect their investment, so either some sort of security deposit is involved, or you copy in their own place, under supervision. Preferably both. At this point, they are running a small business. They might as well also make scrolls and sell them. Depending on what scroll pricing rules you use (I don’t recommend Xanathar’s, because high level scrolls are more expensive to make than powerful permanent items), they could figure out how to price scrolls versus copy privileges for their convenience and profit. (I actually worked up some pricing schemes for this stuff myself to encourage certain types of NPC behavior.)

I would expect mage guilds probably allow copying privileges for a relatively low price for members, and not at all for non-members, or at a high price and restricted to common spells.

The old “no wizard is going to teach someone a spell that can be used against them!” line has always triggered my inconsistency sensor. Sure, if you are playing an extremely low magic game, then yeah, maybe fireball and dispel magic are hard to come by. But if you are even playing a low-moderate magic game, I expect the old standby spells are going to be available to people who are already wizards and probably know where to find more wizards, even if there are relatively few wizards in the world population. It’s only the rare or personal spells you might (or might not) jealously guard.

So basically, unless someone is running a really low magic campaign, my recommendations are:
1) Let PCs copy spells from each other. They are watching each other’s backs and sleeping around the same campfire. It makes sense in world, and it doesn’t break anything.
2) Make NPCs cautious with their spellbooks. Very close NPCs friends might let them copy under the right circumstances, but make sure it would make sense to the NPC.
3) Guilds or shopkeepers might have a standard rate for either copying spells, buying scrolls, or both, and would likely allow any common spells, because you can get it from someone else if they don’t let you pay them for it.
4) Getting spellbooks from defeated wizards is part of the game, just like getting magic weapons from defeated warriors who wielded them. Give such books all the standard spells that make sense, whatever other spells you want the wizard to know, and random extra spells to fill out how many you think it should have. Don’t worry—there is almost always going to be significant overlap with what the PC already knows.
5) Don’t worry about how many spells they get. As others have brought up, it’s really the preparation that is the limiting factor. Clerics and druids know every spell on their list and it doesn’t break anything. The frustration of a wizard player not getting to use their class feature enough is a much bigger problem than their character ending up with half as many known spells as a cleric instead of a quarter as many.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Another business model that occurred to me that would undoubtedly arise: non-Wizards with fat spellbooks who knows enough about the value of the contents to charge Wizards for copying privileges.

EDIT: And, again, I'm not saying I want this to happen or I don't want this to happen. I'm saying it would happen in a world where copying has no limitations or risks, and thus its absence is illogical.

So basically a Wizard should be able to have access to any spell they are willing to pay for, as a logical consequence of RAW.
 
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Dausuul

Legend
I think maybe the point I'm trying to explore is being completely missed. Sure, you can always make up story reasons why a particular NPC wizard won't let a player copy spells, but it doesn't solve the problem (which has honestly never occurred to me until this thread) that from an Econ 101 standpoint under the current rules...
<soapbox>
Econ 101 is a terrible, terrible guide to how the world works; not because it's wrong, but because it's incomplete. It introduces some basic concepts, but those concepts only apply in a very general way at a very high level. It's like you took Sailing 101 and learned about tides and trade winds. And you look at a sailor and go, "The tide's in your favor and the trade winds are blowing your way, so why are you hiding in port?" And the sailor replies, "Because we're in the middle of a freakin' hurricane."

The basic principles of supply and demand are fine as far as they go, but they explain only a tiny fraction of how any given business works. In this case, Econ 101 abstracts away the cost of protecting yourself from getting ripped off or murdered. And in a D&D world, for a typical murderhobo* PC, that cost is likely to dominate your interactions with other wizards.
</soapbox>

the cost of simply buying new spells should be 25gp/level plus some kind of profit margin, because there's nothing intrinsic to spells that keeps them from being copied an unlimited number of times.

You can wave your hands and say, "Well, no Wizard is going to do that just to make a few extra gold pieces." But imagine what would happen if an NPC offered 25 gp/spell level to copy a player's spellbook. Wouldn't most players, especially most low-level players, jump at this chance?
I have unlimited calls on my phone. It costs me nothing to make a phone call. So if a stranger comes up to me on the street and offers me $25 to make a call on my phone, I should jump at the chance, right?

Uh... no. I'm not risking a $600 phone on the promise of twenty-five bucks from a stranger. And that's in a world where, if my phone gets stolen, I can go buy another one, download my backed-up data, and be back in business. Your spellbook doesn't back up to the cloud.

PCs who would jump at this chance clearly have had very nice, forgiving DMs. If you did it in a campaign I was running, you might make a couple hundred gold. But you might also find that the wizard casts invisibility and tries to run off with your spellbook. You can stop the thief if you've taken the right precautions - but if you missed a trick somewhere, your spellbook is gone, bub.

All that is not to say that it would be impossible to pay money to copy spells. If you offered me $5,000 to make a call on my phone - and showed me the cash, and paid half in advance - then sure, you can make the call! But then you're the one who just revealed that you're walking around with $5,000 in cash...

(Also, if the spell is high-level or unusual, you have the problem of finding someone who knows it in the first place.)

[SIZE=-2]*Using "murderhobo" in the non-pejorative sense: A person of no fixed abode whose profession is killing stuff for money.[/SIZE]
 
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Guest 6801328

Guest
<soapbox>
Econ 101 is a terrible, terrible guide to how the world works; not because it's wrong, but because it's incomplete. It introduces some basic concepts, but those concepts only apply in a very general way at a very high level. It's like you took Sailing 101 and learned about tides and trade winds. And you look at a sailor and go, "The tide's in your favor and the trade winds are blowing your way, so why are you hiding in port?" And the sailor replies, "Because we're in the middle of a freakin' hurricane."

The basic principles of supply and demand are fine as far as they go, but they explain only a tiny fraction of how any given business works. In this case, Econ 101 abstracts away the cost of protecting yourself from getting ripped off or murdered. And in a D&D world, for a typical murderhobo* PC, that cost is likely to dominate your interactions with other wizards.
</soapbox>

Oh FFS I didn't literally meant the simplified equations taught in Econ 101. I meant "a 30 second contemplation of how markets behave."


I have unlimited calls on my phone. It costs me nothing to make a phone call. So if a stranger comes up to me on the street and offers me $25 to make a call on my phone, I should jump at the chance, right?

Uh... no. I'm not risking a $600 phone on the promise of twenty-five bucks from a stranger. And that's in a world where, if my phone gets stolen, I can go buy another one, download my backed-up data, and be back in business. Your spellbook doesn't back up to the cloud.

Funny example to pick.

Unfortunately I'm not pulling up any articles in the 60 seconds I tried, but a few years ago I read a story about microfinance philanthropy where entrepreneurs (mostly women) were loaned enough money to get a cell phone. They would then sell calls on a call-by-call basis to their neighbors.

And you really wouldn't let a stranger used your phone? Even if it were an attractive woman in business attire? I'm betting most people would do it for free. (My wife once called me from a phone she borrowed from a stranger.) I think most people would first assess how trustworthy the stranger is, based on subjective/surface evidence.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Look I really don't want to keep arguing about market realism here. I think it's obvious that if there are a lot of wizards running around (medium to high magic world) with gold and time being the only costs in copying spells, the "market" is going to provide access to any spell you want at some small margin above the costs. If you disagree (or if you think that's fine) then you won't think it's interesting to contemplate a new, minor mechanic.

I'd rather have fun theorizing about what that mechanic would like. Trying to persuade people of how the markets would behave is not fun.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Relate to the real world whenever possible and then figure out how to go from there.

Spells are like computer code. They're the words that make amazing things happen. How freely do people give access to advanced code?

Some people think knowledge should be shared. They post their code for free. If you can find it, you can have it. In D&D, this might be a wizard that is happy to share his spells with a like-minded soul with no expectation of anything in return.

Some people think that the work they put into writing it needs to be paid for - they will sell you code, or maybe trade it for something else of value. This might be a merchant, or a wizard that spent a lot of money to build up his spellbook and negotiates payment for access so that he, himself, can afford to get more.

Some people think that their code is theirs and they should not share it. That wizard would not share spells unless forced.

How would I handle it? I'd look at where he is going and then build an NPC in that location. Then I'd ask how the NPC would approach the situation. Afterall, the wizard is going to be fine whether he has a bare minimum sized spellbook with only spells gained at level or an expansive spellbook with hundreds of spells.
 

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