What is *worldbuilding* for?

Sadras said:

I'm not following you here, what does this have to do with the definition or degree of player agency?

I agree with you that the 'boring story' is certainly a risk attributable to anyone who is allowed to author the fiction.

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hawkeyefan said:

It was said in context of a specific example, that of the map that had been brought up throughout the thread. I gave a couple of different examples of the map situation. I’ll share again because it seems I was not clear.

Bob the Fighter’s goal is to recover his father’s sword. It was stolen years before, but Bob is unsure by whom or why. So through the course of play, the characters learn that a noble who is suspected of illicit and dark dealings may have a map that indicates where the sword may be. So the PCs are going to the noble’s manor to try and find this map.

Now, in a player driven game, the GM would frame this and then ask “what do you do?” Going off of Pemerton’s earlier comments, it seems that the players can indicate that they search the kitchen for the map, and if their Perception or Search roll indicates a success, then the map is found in the kitchen.

This just seems boring to me. Which is why I’ve been citing this example as not being particularly useful without context. Now, I’ve added context to it, but perhaps this is far different context than what Pemerton had in mind. And I’m sure that if asked, Pemerton might say that this would not happen because the players in his game are not likely to attempt such an action. They are experienced players and their thoughts are focused on the dramatic impact of the narrative. In which case, the example seems not very useful to describe play.

Now, the same example applied to a more GM driven, D&D style game is equally useless. The players are not likely to try and manufacture the map through a search of the kitchen. Instead, they would simply indicate that they search the kitchen, and leave the results of their search up to the GM. So in this case, the GM is not actually denying any agency on the players’ part because none is expected in this manner wen playibg this type of game. This goes back to Ovinomancer’s chess move in a checkers game analogy.

So my question is if players can author elements to the game, what is to stop them from manufacturing their goals in an undramatic and unsatisfying way? Is it the GM’s framing? If so, then what is the difference between that and a GM relying on his notes? If they both prevent the players from concocting a simple solution to their problem, then are they really all that different?

Or is it principled play by the players? Where the agency exists for them to add elements to the game, but they limit themselves to only the elements that add dramatic weight?

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Sadras said:

What I'm trying to illustrate in the example is that if the player has the ability to inject fiction on that level (what you referred to as DM agency), more options become available to the player and so naturally this increases the number of action declarations he/she can make and is thus able to drive the story more directly towards his/her stated goal. i.e. an increased amount of player agency.

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hawkeyefan said:

So my question is if players can author elements to the game, what is to stop them from manufacturing their goals in an undramatic and unsatisfying way? Is it the GM’s framing? If so, then what is the difference between that and a GM relying on his notes? If they both prevent the players from concocting a simple solution to their problem, then are they really all that different?

Or is it principled play by the players? Where the agency exists for them to add elements to the game, but they limit themselves to only the elements that add dramatic weight?

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Sadras said:

You seem to be agreeing with this rather rigid view of the term, given the below line.

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Nagol said:

Most games don't even mention that form of consideration as a player obligation.

As a player of many types of RPGs, I despise being "focused on the dramatic impact of the narrative". If there is drama, I'm failing to keep the situation under control. A lot of my table time is devoted to investigation and planning phases as opposed to execution so as to reduce or eliminate dramatic impact. I do not care if the narrative is boring. I do not care the table play makes a good story. I care about accomplishing the tasks at hand -- preferably with aplomb and deftness. I would be the type to say 'the first room we come to' when asked 'where are you searching?'. A confrontation in the den with the roaring fireplace, towering bookshelves, and hung weaponry culminating in grabbing for the map as it's tossed into the fire may be more dramatic than finding the map in the spare cold kitchen, but I wouldn't care.

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Aenghus said:

Some players have been active for decades in the hobby and often have referee experience. Expecting such players not to have creative opinions on a game they are participating in as players seems unrealistic to me.

One issue GM-driven games have is that player feedback can be discouraged to such an extent that it's suppressed. Players can be cowed into passivity, and older games can actively encourage such tactics.

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Aenghus said:

I have had to spend time in my group retraining a number of players establishing trust, so they can feel save taking risks in the game.

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Maxperson said:

And to take that one step further. If it is principled play by the players which keeps his style in check, then why isn't principled play by the DM not to railroad the players into a choose your own adventure book equally sufficient?

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hawkeyefan said:

Yes, exactly. I’m all about trusting the players. But I feel like there is little trust being afforded to the GM throughout much of this discussion. I’m not sure why.

Does it boil down to game mechanics? If you introduce a game that uses more player driven elements and takes the weight off the GM, that’s fine. And I can understand that as a preferred style.

I just don’t know if that’s the only way to achieve it.

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