What is *worldbuilding* for?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
and



You seemed to have missed a massive step.
You talk about the characters searching for a secret door. You NEVER refer to the character searching for an orc. The objects in both those situations are door and orc respectively. Your example jumps straight into the combat with the orc i.e. How we engage with the object once it is present. Why would you purposefully use such a disingenuous comparative example?

Are ALL your combat encounters introduced only on a failed roll?
Based on your play-examples, the answer would be a resounding no. So given your definition of a railroad (based on your above posts) - I guess we all railroad.

In conclusion - No Myth Story Now and Worldbuilding Games are both railroads according to your definition.

@Lanefan, @shidaku and @happyhermit I wouldn't take offense.

@pemerton's entire style is a railroad, which might explain why he doesn't recognize that. The Story Now style involves the players setting goals(rails) and the DM doing everything in hos power to keeping the PCs on those rails by making everything in some way important to those goals. Since his style involves the players wanting to be on the rails, the railroading is a good thing in this instance.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Oh hey, you're still here and dissecting my posts, did you miss this?;



Are you actually arguing that using kickers in a game with some degree of GM-worldbuilding is impossible? It isn't clear.



I don't see any sort of definition of GM-worldbuilding in the OP, but I remember now that you are using some very atypical and specific definitions. IIRC by "Gm-worldbuilding", you aren't referring to all Gm-worldbuilding or even all pre-game Gm-worldbuilding, but a specific subset of that. Sorcerer probably still meets that highly customized definition (which is essentially reverse engineered so that games like it don't fit the bill, which is fine but it really would be better to use a different term than try to co-opt an existing one), but I was referring to the original game and how it was run, not how it's viewed 10-20 years later. The designer and community have a different perspective on it now, games like it have led to some different understandings.



Sure, that's why I didn't say "It's just backstory", I said "(often a sort of backstory)". Because that's often what it is, a very specific form of "backstory". Then I posted a quote and thread by the guy who coined the term where he is specifically trying to explain what it is. It's either funny or sad that I make about as neutral as possible of a post on an aspect of your favoured playstyle and you say "You are missing the point" and yet you seem to continually make terribly unrepresentative posts about other playstyles and don't think you are "missing the point" at all.
Welcome to discussion with pemerton. The goal of the discussion is to figure out how he's defined the words he's using to mean. Generally, assuming he's trying to use any negative term (railroading, etc) it will be to describe other play styles than his. If it's a positive word, then it's will be defined to only sorry his plausible and not others.

Examples:

Worldbuilding: anything that exists that is used to say no to player action declarations except those things pemerton uses to say no.

Agency: the ability to declare an action that the GM cannot say no to.

Railroading: any time the GM says no to an action declaration, unless it's a thing pemerton says no to.
 

happyhermit

Adventurer
Oh, goodie, we're back to yelling railroad at each other using highly dubious and entirely idiosyncratic definitions.

Stop railroading this discussion!

I can't really help but feel this whole thread was a bit of a bait and switch though, honestly. I entered it thinking it was about discussing an important aspect of ttrpgs, the OT and OP asked some reasonable questions. The OP didn't actually want hear any answers though, the questions were all rhetorical and merely there to be answered with "Wrong, it's actually just for the GM to tell stories." and when exceptions or other ways of looking at it come up the OP says "No I didn't mean that kinda thing". Sounds a lot like a GM railroad with a bit of bait and switch thrown in for good measure.

Sure I said we were going to play a game of The One Ring, but that's not actually any fun, let me explain why. What I actually meant was that I would read the Hobbit to you, because it doesn't have all that boring interaction between us and I don't have to actually consider anything you say.
 

The purpose is the same - to share cool things. We just go about it differently.

I think the difference OTOH is how we determine what is 'cool'. You seem to create a long list of things and situations, in the hope that some subset of them are going to be cool to the players. I just ask them! They tell me what is cool and I deliver coolness. FOR ME this seems a lot more efficient ;)
 

That's the thing about feelings, they can be pretty subjective & contextual. If you've gamed a lot using one technique, defended it against undue criticisms a lot, and become invested in it and proprietary about it, you can turn around and be just as unduly critical of any alternative. And, part of that will be the unique, irreproducible, 'feel' you get from it. (What? Try something else? Blasphemy!) ;)
Interesting, but then I think it is pretty fair for me to claim to have more experience with all sorts of techniques of play, genre, games, players, etc. than almost anyone else here ;) I mean, I am not saying this to brag and try to claim that my opinion is better than other people's opinions, all I'm trying to say is I don't approach this from any kind of position of ignorance, about most anything that is core to RPGs.

In fact, the techniques I'm espousing almost certainly represent a MINORITY of the experience I've had as both a GM and a player, by a pretty fair margin. Its hard to draw lines exactly and say with surety which game qualifies as what, but I feel like my opinion is founded in an appreciation of technique which arises out of an evolution of technique. In other words I experienced (indeed to some extent helped establish) patterns of play and then experienced their limitations, and iteratively modified those techniques in different directions until I systematically arrived at what worked best.

I'm not trying to push it on anyone or be 'biased'. I just see statements made in a lot of cases that grossly contradict extensive experience. Its hard not to point that out! At a certain point, particularly when discussing things with players who appear to have dug themselves irrevocably into a fixed pattern of play, I have to conclude that some of the things they say are based on a narrow viewpoint and don't reflect experience with other techniques, and perhaps a base of experience with a limited set of self-selecting people who share their experiences.

Again, this isn't meant to be dismissive of anyone, just when something comes up, like [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] stating that players want to have all sorts of elaborate information about their starting location before they do anything, I am at a loss. After 42 years of GMing this never came up, not in probably 30 campaigns and dozens of groups. How can it be nearly universal? I just don't understand!.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I think the difference OTOH is how we determine what is 'cool'. You seem to create a long list of things and situations, in the hope that some subset of them are going to be cool to the players. I just ask them! They tell me what is cool and I deliver coolness. FOR ME this seems a lot more efficient ;)

And so do I. Like I’ve said multiple times, much of my notes are to help me when the plays say, “I do x” and nothing immediately comes to mind. In addition, when you have time to consider things you’ll often come up with better ideas than just in the moment.

I find that the quality of cool increases significantly for me when I am able to provide additional inputs to my improv and reactions to what the players/characters say and do.

And no, making a list has nothing to do with what I or others consider cool. Lists and such are a process, a tool to help produce the content.

The only way to determine whether the content is cool is in your interactions and communication with the players, along with your own assessment of what’s cool to you.
 

pemerton

Legend
If the presence (or absence) of the secret door is recorded and independent of either the GM's or the player's desires for it to be there at the time and the GM isn't goading the players one way or the other, how can its presence (or absence) possibly limit the choices of the players?
I'm not sure if you intend this as a rhetorical question or not. I will treat it as non-rhetorical, and answer it. To the extent that you intended it rhetorically, you'll probably think my answer inadequate - sometimes that happens in discussions among human beings!

Here's the sort of thing I have in mind - it's a bit underdescribed but hopefully clear enough to get us on the same page in respect of it:

<the prior events of play, together with GM narration, establish (i) that the PCs are in a stone building facing some bare walls, (ii) thay the PCs are being pursued through the building, and (iii) leave it open what might be behind the walls in question>

Player: "There might be a secret door that we could escape through in one of those bare walls - I seach for signs of one."

GM: "Make a [Perception, Search, Architecture, as appropriate to system] check."

<player makes check>

<GM consults notes, notes that the notes describe these walls as nothing more than plain walls with no secret doors in them>

GM: "You don't find any signs of secret doors."​

Here's why I characterise this as a railroad.

We don't know exactly how it has come about that the PCs are being pursued through the buiilding - most typically, I think, that would be a consequence resulting from some recent bit of past play. But in any event, that pursuit is now the salient pressure on the PCs (and hence the players) in the game. In response to that pressue, this particular player has expressed an interest in the fiction developing in a certain direction - namely, that his/her PC finds signs of a secret door in the bare wall, so that the PCs might escape though it.

Now, because we're playing a game with "moves" and dice and stuff, rather than just round-robin storytelling, the player's desire about the fiction doesn't happen automatically. Rather, the player declares an action for his/her PC that folows from that desire. Success in that action declaration will meant that the player gets want s/he wants vis-a-vis the fiction (ie the PC finds signs of a secret door); failure means s/he won't.

(Note that this action declaration satisfies other typical constraints on player-side moves in a FRPG. For instnace, it is declared from the first-person perspective of the PC. And it's a well-establshed trope of fantasy gaming that bare stone walls can in fact have secret doors in them.)

In the example I've given, the player's action declaration does not succeed, but not because s/he rolled too low on the dice. (This contrasts with a failed attack roll.) It fails because the GM has already decicded that it can't succeed.

That is the limit on the players' choice - his/her choice to have escape occur by way of secret door has been vetoed by the GM, by application of the prior worldbuilding/setting authorship. That is why I call it a railroad.

For completeness, I've written a further comment; because it's tangential, I've sblocked it.

[sblock]There is a completley different style of play, which is not about salient pressure on the PCs but is about puzzling out the maze designed by the GM, so as to extract loot from it. The OP distinguished the two styles of play; the latter is associated with classic D&D dungeoncrawling,. I don't think the notion of railroading has any work at all to do in describing that sort of RPGing, because the game isn't about developing a ficiton at all; that's just a side effect of the players declaring moves that allow them to map out the dungeon and locate and recover the treasures. In this style of play there can be well- and poorly-desigend dungeons (eg too linear, or too many pit traps, or too little treasure relative to difficulty); and fair and unfair refereeing (eg rules that the monsters always find the PCs while resting, no matter what precautions the players take to reduce the risk of being found). But no railroading [/sblock]

If the check succeeds, you make up stuff related to the goal. If the players are making up details for the results of their own rolls, you are not needed as DM. If they are not, they are declaring actions in order to get you to make up stuff.
You seem to have missed the way that "say 'yes' or roll the dice" actually works.

If the GM calls for a check and the check succeeds, then the player's intent is realised, and so the only work the GM did was to contribute to the framing, to call for a check in response to the action declaration, and to set the DC. It is the player's desire for the fiction that comes to pass (just the same as in combat: a successful disarm roll, for instance, isn't just a cue to the GM to make something up: it establishes a definite outcome in the fiction, namely, that the foe is disarmed).

If the check fails, the player's intent is not realised, and rather the GM narrates some consequence which, ideally (ie from the pont of view of a satisfactory aesthetic experience), was implicit in the framing of the situation In this latter case, the GM does all the work done for a successful check, plus has to establish and narrate the consequence of failure.

The role of the GM is therefore pretty clear, I think.

The Story Now style involves the players setting goals(rails) and the DM doing everything in hos power to keeping the PCs on those rails by making everything in some way important to those goals.
You are, I think, the only person I've ever met who thinks that saying "yes" to someone's request is railroading them!

But in any event, what you say is not accurate, because it ignores the narration of consequences for failure. These obviously should have thematic/dramatic significance, but will constitute obstacles to the PCs realising their goals. Likewise the framing of situations that don't follow from failure, but have the goal of provoking dramatic/thematic choices by the players for their PCs: these will be obstacles to the PCs' goals.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
What I describe isn't particularly about "setting tourism."
It seemed like you were aluding to the extremes of world-building techniques where it could become dysfunctional.

But it is still about the players declaring moves that trigger the GM to tell them things that the GM (or other author) made up about the setting.

My impression - from reading rulebooks, from reading blogs, from reading these boards - is that this sort of thing is pretty common in RPGing, especially contemporary D&D play..
Sure, but so what? It's not like anyone's telling a story in that mode. A story might come out of it in retrospect....
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
At a certain point, particularly when discussing things with players who appear to have dug themselves irrevocably into a fixed pattern of play, I have to conclude that some of the things they say are based on a narrow viewpoint and don't reflect experience with other techniques, and perhaps a base of experience with a limited set of self-selecting people who share their experiences.
Nod. I was making a similar observation, from another angle. Discussions like this go back to Role v Roll and three-fold theory, and the general animus against D&D at that time, and indeed to criticisms of before and since.
The defensiveness is understandable.
 

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