The 5e Flaws list, my editorial changes (to correct flaws in the flaws)

Satyrn

First Post
I'm not seeing your point. Please clarify. Most of them don't work through implication. They overstate their case. Some aren't even flaws. I suppose those could work through implication if someone decides to create a flaw to go with the "flaw" that actually isn't a flaw.


Why? Why aren't there three copies of other flaws, or two copies of each? It sounds to me like some are trying to just justify the flaws in the flaws list.

It's one thing to rebut my claims about the flaws of the flaws list being flaws or not. But, "I like X" isn't a rebuttal. Some kind of logic needs to be exposed that supports liking X better than Y.
I'm really not arguing for my preference or against yours.
I think we see the purpose of those background elements differently, use them for completely different reason. I like that there's nothing terribly structured about them, that they are unspecific, disorganized and unstructured - whatever flaws you see in it. I like them because they inspire me to visualize my character better than the a well-organized, structered lists of flaws and traits and such that I've seen in the past.

If I have a logical reason, it's that their very imperfection stirs my creativity.


Well, not the bonds. Those lists of bonds have inspired nothing.
 

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Satyrn

First Post
I hope this is viewed as intended, as constructive criticism.

I want to second this. You obviously put a lot of thought and work into this and I think this work is very useful to help you better play your characters and your NPCs. For players who are new to role-playing, it can help them get the most of their flaws.

I just do not think that the flaws as written (FAW?) are broken.

I will third this.
 



superstition

First Post
I prefer the writing of the flaws as written over your wordy revisions.

Some of the revisions have the same number of words, or the addition or one or two. "Wordy" is only meaningful if it can be proven that the additional words can be cut. Proof is particularly needed when it comes to things like:

A) flaws that aren't flaws in the first place
B) absolutist statements
C) flaws that would require the character to not have a good alignment
D) flaws that have a mechanic, like Rage, built into them (seemingly unintentionally)

you call out this flaw in a recent post:

"I would kill to acquire a nobel title."

You don't have to take this literally.
Of course you do. It is what is written. If you decide to change the wording in your mind or somewhere else then you are houseruling.

When I hear people say "I would kill to ... [instert a desirable possession, activity, or desired status]" I understand it to be hyperbole.
Still an example of houseruling. Rules are stated as they are stated. They are not several rules combined into one, depending on how the reader decides to apply anecdotal subjective experience, et cetera. How is the hyperbole useful? If the intention is to show that the character is prone to making jokey hyperbolic statements then the flaw could be written in a manner that actually suggests that, like: "I would really kill to get a noble title, really!"

That's a rather stupid-seeming flaw but if the idea is to show that the person speaks hyperbolically and likes the idea of having a noble title without actually being serious about the threat then that's the kind of thing you get.

The pithy and direct flaw as written gets the point across and the players can interpret it how they want for their characters.
Buzzwords like "pithy" and "direct" don't fix the problems I identified.
 

superstition

First Post
I like that there's nothing terribly structured about them, that they are unspecific, disorganized and unstructured

Huh?

Many of them are very flat basic statements. The absolutist nature of many of them is the opposite of unstructured, unspecific, and disorganized. Absolutist statements are excessively structured, excessively specific, and excessively organized.

I like them because they inspire me to visualize my character better than the a well-organized, structered lists of flaws and traits and such that I've seen in the past.

If I have a logical reason, it's that their very imperfection stirs my creativity.
So, the argument you're literally making is that the flaws list is better-quality because the wordings are flawed.

Hmm..
 

superstition

First Post
...I think this work is very useful to help you better play your characters and your NPCs. For players who are new to role-playing, it can help them get the most of their flaws.

I just do not think that the flaws as written (FAW?) are broken.

This post is contradictory. Let's look at the two claims:

A) The work you did is useful, especially for those new to RP.
B) The work you did is useless because the flaws, as originally written, are not flawed.

Being new to RP or not, statements like "I would kill to get a noble title" have no grey area. "Flaws" that aren't flaws aren't a matter of grey area either. All of those issues require houseruling.
 

superstition

First Post
These are not improvements, they are straight-jackets.
The absolutist statements are the straightjackets.

The flaws that ban good alignment are more straightjacketing than my revisions (excepting the cases where there are multiple revisions presented where one is clearly intended to not be used for good alignment characters).

Flaws that aren't flaws aren't straightjackets, necessarily, but they're not flaws either.

You are simply removing the players' ability to interpret the vague suggestions into your own personal interpretations.
Untrue. Absolutist statements are excessively specific.

Reading over the list again. They're not very good examples. I was just being nice.
That's nice.

You litter strong writing with vague, weak descriptors, like "very", "sometimes", and "often".
Hmm... I thought your complaint was the opposite of this one? Remember the awful straightjacketing? Now, you're complaining that the flaws are too loosely-written. Hmm...

Then you include your own personal motivations, like "Because I grew up in a violent environment", or "I won't because it is considered evil". That is taking away the player's ability to define motivations for his own unique character.
The violent environment comes directly from legitimate psychology, such as the Bobo Doll experiments. It also grounds the character, giving them a reason to have this excessive violence problem. You're misusing the term motivation here. It's not a motivation. It's an explanation.

The "I won't because it is considered evil" clause was clearly added to make the flaw compatible with a good-aligned character.

Your complaint that the flaws restrict the player's ability to define their character attacks the flaws list itself. As such, I consider it frivolous. The point of the flaws list is to give characters flaws. Those flaws need to be clear and they need to be workable.

For example, the one you wrote about wanting to kill to be a noble. What if the character's home was ruled by corrupt and evil senate? He knows killing one or several would only make room for others ready to take his place. It won't change anything. But to become part of that government and bring change from within...? Now that is an interesting motivation,
Your example isn't relevant to the flaw as originally written. The point of the flaw is to say that the character desires a noble title so much that he/she will readily kill for it.

but you can't impose it on every character.
Nor is it even present in the flaw as written.

Let the players expand on the ideas.
I want to see a list of four of my revisions that so terribly straightjacket players. These revisions must have counterparts (the flaws as originally written) that don't have serious flaws, including the straightjacketing.

I hope this is viewed as intended, as constructive criticism.
Regardless of intent, the result is erroneous. The claim that my revisions are more straightjacketing than the originals that had things like absolutism in them is just false.

I have asked people to present specific revisions to fix any alleged issues but instead people are just content to make sweeping generalizations that often aren't factual.

For those who truly believe that the original list has no flaws then my hat is off to them. However, I don't think engaging that point of view is constructive because I consider it completely inaccurate. There are some flaws that didn't need to be revised. Those don't appear in the opening post. However, my opinion — which I have provided strong evidence to support — is that most of them needed some adjustment. Sometimes this was as minor as putting in the word "usually". Adding the word "usually" to a statement to get rid of "always" is the opposite of a straightjacket. The opposite.

The constructive thing to do would be to revise specific revisions I've made or present alternative revisions to the flawed flawed. That would be actually constructive. I've asked people to do this and no one has so far. So, I will assume that my revisions are good enough.
 

Ristamar

Adventurer
Just my friendly two cents:

Using the term "houserule" based on a disagreement on the interpretations of the PHB character flaws is probably a non-starter for discussion with many people.

The rules are already somewhat vague in many areas due to the use of natural language, and the sections regarding Traits/Bonds/Ideals/Flaws are particularly nebulous in regard to their application within game (which is arguably intentional).

I do think there are interesting points for discussion based on your list and the perspective that informed those changes. But coming in hard with loaded terms and stiff opinions isn't likely going to produce the thread you desire... unless you're just looking stir up rancor.
 

superstition

First Post
Using the term "houserule" based on a disagreement on the interpretations of the PHB character flaws is probably a non-starter for discussion with many people.
There are factual interpretations, non-factual interpretations, and subjective/debatable interpretations. Many of the interpretations I have presented are factual.

If someone says "The pool has water in it" then it's not up for debate whether or not the person intended for people to think that person thinks there is water in the pool.

Many of the original flaws are not, at all, challenging to interpret. What is challenging is revising them to make them usable. Whether it is done formally as I have in this thread or whether it is done in some other way, it will be done in any game that tries to be non-chaotic.

The rules are already somewhat vague in many areas due to the use of natural language
The language I used in the revisions is generally natural. If people have suggestions to making it more "natural" then I'm interested in seeing them. Only a small number of my revisions come across as lawyer-like. However, sometimes it's necessary to resort to precise language. It depends on the difficulty of presenting a specific flaw.

I do think there are interesting points for discussion based on your list and the perspective that informed those changes. But coming in hard with loaded terms and stiff opinions isn't likely going to produce the thread you desire... unless you're just looking stir up rancor.
I don't appreciate the ad hominem.

Suggesting that I am here to troll people is not supported by the facts.
 

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