Greataxe, greatsword, and a little math

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Everyone knows that the greataxe has slightly lower average damage than the greatsword. The axe does 6.5 on average, the sword does 7.0. This is not a big deal, but it bothers me more than it probably should.

Of course, when you add in the GWF style, the disparity grows quite a bit. Rerolling 1s and 2s, the axe does 7.33 hp, the sword does 8.33. That's equivalent to a full die step, and seems legitimately significant.

I've wondered about ways to fix this. Simplest would be to make the greataxe 2d6, but that is a little boring. I'm probably not the first person to realize that there is another option:
Give the greataxe the property that when you roll max damage, you get to roll again one time and add that to the total. So if you roll a 12, you end up doing 12+1d12.

If you work it out, that gives an average damage of 7.04 hp, almost exactly the same as the greatsword. With GWF it improves to 8.03, not exactly equivalent but much closer.

I like this, but I have a question: people tend to key in on the max damage, which increases dramatically in my scheme. Even though they are mathematically balanced, would this make the greataxe seem too good? When you read it, is your first reaction that you would always pick my greataxe over a greatsword?

One point: I would not normally apply this to monsters... their greataxes just wouldn't be quite as good.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Curious. On normal great axe, How much damage would you need to add to a crit to bring up the average to near the great sword?
 


jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Curious. On normal great axe, How much damage would you need to add to a crit to bring up the average to near the great sword?
Unfortunately that depends on the AC of the target. Crits have more impact against a high AC target, because a hit is more likely to be a crit.
 


jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Easy. Just have them do the same damage.
I totally agree that is a solution, but it is a little boring. Also, people who like greataxes often appreciate their swinginess; the chance of doing max damage is much higher than for a greatsword. Similarly, some people who like greatswords appreciate their reliability. I would just as soon not take either of those away.

(You can also worry about the barbarian's Brutal Crit. If you make both weapons 2d6, brutal crit gets worse. If you make them both 1d12, GWF gets worse.)
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Then your avearage damages you are calculating from are already off.
How so? The numbers I cite don't include crits, but the opportunity to crit will multiply the base damage by the same factor in every case.

So yes, in the sense that if crits are more important then any difference in base damage will be amplified, but if you think about the ratio instead of the difference, it cancels out. Further, crits will only increase the damage disparity, so decreasing that disparity helps regardless.
 

Why should they not be different? It's not always about doing "average" damage. A greataxe is 3 times more likely to come up with a 12 than a greatsword (unmodded by special abilities).

As it happens, there are a couple of abilities that work better with an greataxe than a greatsword: Savage Attacks (half orc), Brutal Critical (barbarian), Savage Attacker (feat).
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
How so? The numbers I cite don't include crits, but the opportunity to crit will multiply the base damage by the same factor in every case.

So yes, in the sense that if crits are more important then any difference in base damage will be amplified, but if you think about the ratio instead of the difference, it cancels out. Further, crits will only increase the damage disparity, so decreasing that disparity helps regardless.

Moral of the story. Don't dig in after discounting someone else's suggestion with a criticism that applies just as easily to yours.
 

A half or full point of damage on average either way doesn't bother most players I've played with. They typically choose weapons based on the flavor of the character they want to portray.
 

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