Pathfinder 2E We need a damage on a miss forum again!!

The Crimson Binome · Apr 1, 2018

Arakasius said:
Magic missile despite not being a very good spell does have some appeal because of the fact that it can’t miss, despite the inferior damage result. I’m not sure why giving fighters something similar is breaking anything.

Wizards are rare. If the enemy group has a wizard in it, then you can 1) identify them on the spot, so you know to drop them first; and 2) you know to expect crazy shenanigans from them. They're wearing the designated shenanigans hat.

If any old fighter could pull out those kinds of shenanigans, then 1) you wouldn't know who to target first, since it's just a guy with a sword; and 2) it would no longer be a weird thing, because apparently everyone can do that now.

Arilyn · Apr 1, 2018

Saelorn said:
Except we've already had it explained by one of the design people, in a much earlier thread, that damage in Pathfinder always contains a substantial physical component. It's impossible to deal HP damage without making physical contact.

And that means this attack is really just a guaranteed hit. Maybe it doesn't have some other special side-effect, and that's why it's still balanced mechanically, but it's still a guarantee that the attack will hit and it will deal damage.

Imagine how that works in play. Your noble fighter is fighting off a group of orcs, and you have to go on the defensive because you're running low on HP and you need to stall for time so the cleric can get to you, and then the next orc just walks up to you and drops you without even rolling any dice.

I mean, that's not quite where we're at, because they can still miss on a critical failure and going on the defensive increases their chance of critical failure, but still.

Except this is one ability available to the fighter class. Monsters are not going to be able to walk up and drop a character for free.

The Crimson Binome · Apr 1, 2018

Arilyn said:
Except this is one ability available to the fighter class. Monsters are not going to be able to walk up and drop a character for free.

If the difference between PC fighters and NPC fighters is that PC fighters have special shenanigans that break the rules and would be horrible if NPC fighters had, then that sets a precedent which goes against everything that Pathfinder has ever stood for.

mach1.9pants · Apr 1, 2018

Saelorn said:
If the difference between PC fighters and NPC fighters is that PC fighters have special shenanigans that break the rules and would be horrible if NPC fighters had, then that sets a precedent which goes against everything that Pathfinder has ever stood for.

I think the line from the Devs was 'monsters and NPCs are not built like PCs, but you can do if you wish' - same as any game that doesn't use the same rules for opponents as players. I guess the precedent is set?

"Seifter talks about using PC rules to create NPCs -- "You can use PC rules for bad guys too, and it works just fine if you want to put the time into it. But even then, your PCs probably don't often beat up a bunch of random no-combat-threat bookbinders, and if they do, they can use the monster rules for a really weak leveled foe.""

Arilyn · Apr 1, 2018

Saelorn said:
If the difference between PC fighters and NPC fighters is that PC fighters have special shenanigans that break the rules and would be horrible if NPC fighters had, then that sets a precedent which goes against everything that Pathfinder has ever stood for.

I think this is what they are doing, because they want monster stat blocks to be simpler, but we'll have to wait to see for sure.

(Psi)SeveredHead · Apr 1, 2018

Saelorn said:
Wizards are rare. If the enemy group has a wizard in it, then you can 1) identify them on the spot, so you know to drop them first;

Unless they use a disguise.

In World War I, officers wore swords, for a very short period of time. They were targeted first by machine guns. That tradition vanished all of a sudden. I would expect very few wizards wearing obvious, long constraining robes that have the subtlety of a red shirt.

Starfinder doesn't do NPCs the way PCs do (in a kind of confusing way) so this isn't new.

Having said that, I'm not a big fan of damage on a miss. Fighters have other abilities they could be using.

Sunseeker · Apr 1, 2018

I get why "damage on a miss" isn't for everyone.

But really, shouldn't it at least be for fighters? I mean hitting things is their DEAL. They don't have anything else. Shouldn't they be so good at it that they're able to turn failure into at least some kind of success?

Sunseeker · Apr 1, 2018

mach1.9pants said:
I think the line from the Devs was 'monsters and NPCs are not built like PCs, but you can do if you wish' - same as any game that doesn't use the same rules for opponents as players. I guess the precedent is set?

"Seifter talks about using PC rules to create NPCs -- "You can use PC rules for bad guys too, and it works just fine if you want to put the time into it. But even then, your PCs probably don't often beat up a bunch of random no-combat-threat bookbinders, and if they do, they can use the monster rules for a really weak leveled foe.""

Really it's more along the lines of "Who's going to stop me?" approaches. The Devs know that some DMs are going to build their bad-guys right out of the Core Rulebook, same as their NPCs. I did it yesterday. There's not much they can actually do about it. And honestly it's more fitting for certain games to be fighting humanoid enemies who can pull the same tricks as the PCs can.

I wouldn't expect the average owlbear to start dealing damage on a miss though.

I mean....unless it's an awakened owlbear fighter.

The Crimson Binome · Apr 1, 2018

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Unless they use a disguise.

In World War I, officers wore swords, for a very short period of time. They were targeted first by machine guns. That tradition vanished all of a sudden. I would expect very few wizards wearing obvious, long constraining robes that have the subtlety of a red shirt.

If spellcasters are not readily identifiable by their appearance, then it's questionable whether you're even in the same genre anymore. Strong class-based systems only work in worlds where class-based distinctions are paramount.

The types of disguise that a wizard could effectively pull off would be rather limited, in any case. They can't wear armor or use weapons, and they need their hands free for spellcasting. You could have a wizard pretend to be a monk, I guess, in which case the enemy will still over-estimate the threat they present and target them first. Or I guess you could use magic to make it look like you're a fighter, but that's going to come down to the limitations of magic within the world, and you'll give yourself away the second you cast a spell regardless.

CubicsRube · Apr 1, 2018

To me fighters are skilled weapon users thay can use their normal strikes to add maneuvers to.

Most people can swing a sword or trip someone, but only a fighter is skilled enough to do both in the same motion...