Cultures in D&D/roleplaying: damned if you do, damned if you don't

This matter about stereotypes makes me remember a blockbuster Spanish comedy "Ocho apellidos vascos" (= Eight Basque surnames), but with the tittle "Spanish affair" in other countries. It is the story of boy meets girls, but he is Andalucian (region of South and maybe closest one to tipically Spanish stereotypes) and she is Basque, from Euskadi, north region next to French frontier. Usually we don't like our cinema because is boring propaganda, but this movie was a total success, a comedy about our stereotypes.

Do I feel offended by the vision of Spain in that episode of the Simpsons, with that character, Eduardo Barcelona? I know nobody with that surname, and Spanish are Caucasian like French and Italians, and only in Andalucia, the south region, you could find people with darker skin. 8 wifes and 200 children? We aren't rabbits, and now we are suffering a serious demographic crysys. Enough Spanish children aren't born to pay olders pensions'. But this doesn't offend me, but that chapter when Spanish soccer players paid to win a match. That happened after Spain won the soccer world cup. It was like a slap in the face, it was saying we didn't win because we were the best players, but because this time we paid enough and then our victory had no merit.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
This is actually simpler than a lot of people make it out to be.

That feels ironic coming from you.

1) Do your research

Since when has this ever mattered? Show me one case where someone who did research 'got a pass'. Show me one case where someone was offended and then was mollified by the big stack of index cards and footnotes that the author produced.

2) Present the culture as human

There is not, and never really has been, such a thing as a monolithic definition of human. This is particularly true if we start looking at the definitions of human in the pre-modern, pre-cosmopolitan world. To give just one example of many many, one definition of human that has currency to some is, "An animal which has a soul." But this definition is hardly universal and is revered by some and reviled by others.

But I will extend your assertion this far, you should present every human as human by your own definition of human, even if that means presenting a culture in an inauthentic manner. For example, I personally feel it's impossible to present Pre-Columbian North American culture authentically and abide by this mandate, since the Pre-Columbian North Americans themselves didn't believe every tribe was actually a human being. Each tribe tended to believe either its own mythology where other tribes had a different creation origin, or take for granted that the other tribe new its own origin and since the conception of their own origin differed from that of their neighbors conception, they were in their minds at least wholly different groups of people. This is hardly simple or obvious.

Besides that little caveat, the whole point of having things like orcs, elves, dwarves, centaurs and dragons in a setting is that they are not human. Since they are not human, there is no reason that they must be presented as human. It's quite possible that orcs are a monolithic, chaotic, and violent race. There is no reason that a non-human race would necessarily share every quality of humanity. But already this puts us in conflict. I flatly disagree with your claim: "The problem with replacing Mongols with Orcs is how D&D tends to present Orcs as a monolithic, chaotic and violent race."

No, the problem is not that at all. The problem with identifying Mongols with Orcs is that some might infer that you mean that Mongolians are not human whether you mean that or not. But there is nothing wrong with identifying Orcs as non-human. The problem comes with conflating things that aren't human with particular real world cultures. As long as I present Orcs as non-human with a non-human culture, I don't have a problem with that. Yet, you presumably will. So this is a further complexity.

If you're pulling from historical human cultures, the most important thing is to portray them as human, with all the range and diversity that implies. If you're throwing in the Turks as nothing more than faceless bad guys to mow through, yeah, that's pretty damn problematic.

Maybe. Maybe not. To go full Godwin here because the culture presents itself to be picked on and if I used any other culture it would be "problematic", there are plenty of modern stories that present Nazi's as complex, non-monolithic, nuanced human beings, whether we are talking something like 'Band of Brothers' or 'Saving Private Ryan'. But it's not necessarily wrong to tell a story like 'The Dirty Dozen' or 'Inglorious Bastards' where the Nazis are faceless bad guys to mow through, and no one says when you do, "That's pretty damn problematic" because who wants to defend Nazis. But more than that, there has never been a thing as a monolithically good culture, and in any culture there have been periods and places where the culture as a whole acted with a collective monstrous resolve and did monstrous things. There are going to be times and places where the ugly reality of the situation requires you to present a people in a way that is overwhelmingly monstrous, or at the least that such a decision can be defended both on artistic and moral grounds. It can be good to show that nuance, as for example, Guy Gabriel Kay tries to show in the 'Lions of Al-Rassan'. But it's not necessarily the case that you are required to show that nuance or even cases where showing that nuance could itself be problematic.

The whole thing is a minefield you aren't acknowledging. Consider a case like 'Dances with Wolves'. Now, 'Dances' is a part of a genre of 'anti-Westerns' where the normal dynamics of a classic Western are reversed. The Native Americans are presented as nuanced and human, where as the whites are presented as almost entirely morally bankrupt, ignorant and evil. But within even this frame work there are all sorts of complexities. It's only the Dakota that are presented as complex. Their neighbors the Pawnee are presented as faceless bad guys to mow through. That decision as to which tribe to present as heroic and which to present as monstrous turns out to be problematically based on which side allied with Europeans - and not in the way you might first expect. It is the Pawnee that historically have been portrayed as ignoble and savage despite and perhaps because they didn't fight back, while the Sioux are generally portrayed as noble even as villains (and rarely as villains) precisely because they fought back. Yet the Pawnee didn't fight the white settlers precisely because the Pawnee were on the losing side of a genocidal war with the Sioux just prior to the white settlers showing up. None of this nuance is captured in the movie. How should we respond to that? Meanwhile, it is also possible to attack 'Dances with Wolves' because it can be fit to a 'white savior narrative' where a white outsider is assimilated into an exotic culture and helps save it from its enemies and I've certainly seen it attacked in that manner. What are we to make of that? Why should the protagonist be white? Why should we see the culture through the eyes of the white character? Why shouldn't the Native Americans tell their own story? Is the depth of 'research' enough to defend it against that, or is that still problematic enough to damn it?

And yet on the other hand, if the story was through the eyes of Native Americans, wouldn't some people have objected if the story had been created and told by a white person? Wouldn't some of said that that was a morally gray area at best?

Answer those questions in an objective and non-subjective manner if this is simple. And if the answer is, "Well, of course it is subjective.", then it can't be simple, because there are simply too many different voices and viewpoints that could be brought into any conversation.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
That feels ironic coming from you.

This is consistent with what I've said in the past, though I have evolved on the issue somewhat since the last time we went on this rodeo.

Since when has this ever mattered? Show me one case where someone who did research 'got a pass'. Show me one case where someone was offended and then was mollified by the big stack of index cards and footnotes that the author produced.

I'll get to this later when we hit the "minefield" paragraph, but it matters a great deal that the OP's audience is "his players" and he's not thinking about publishing. Putting something out for public consumption is a very different beast altogether. And I don't mean that to say that, if you're only running for your players, that's license to be as racist as you want to be. I mean that, he's running the material for, presumably, people he can trust and, again presumably, people he can expect to get honest and nonjudgmental feedback on. I suppose I am presuming too much, but I tend to think of people who play D&D together as friends, and friends approach each other on this kind of stuff in a very different way that faceless strangers on the internet do, and it gives you the ability to get genuine, useful feedback before (if ever) subjecting it to the broader audience.

Perhaps we could all stand to take a step back and approach situations like this as if we were speaking to a good friend we know meant well. I know I certainly could stand to do that more.

There is not, and never really has been, such a thing as a monolithic definition of human. This is particularly true if we start looking at the definitions of human in the pre-modern, pre-cosmopolitan world. To give just one example of many many, one definition of human that has currency to some is, "An animal which has a soul." But this definition is hardly universal and is revered by some and reviled by others.

I suppose I should have been clearer in what I mean by "human": something that includes, at minimum, individuals who have beliefs and motivations that typically align with their culture in many significant ways but also often in certain ways which do not align with their culture.

But I will extend your assertion this far, you should present every human as human by your own definition of human, even if that means presenting a culture in an inauthentic manner. For example, I personally feel it's impossible to present Pre-Columbian North American culture authentically and abide by this mandate, since the Pre-Columbian North Americans themselves didn't believe every tribe was actually a human being. Each tribe tended to believe either its own mythology where other tribes had a different creation origin, or take for granted that the other tribe new its own origin and since the conception of their own origin differed from that of their neighbors conception, they were in their minds at least wholly different groups of people. This is hardly simple or obvious.

I did not mean that the culture you present as human has to view all other groups through an egalitarian lens; nor did I say that the main institutions within that culture cannot be villainous. I'm not saying to whitewash anyone's history. But if you're going to tell me that every member of every one of these cultures believed that every member of every other tribe was less than human, I'm going to have to ask for your sources. Of course we have no way of knowing for sure, but the idea that were no outliers? Not a single member of the community who questioned the way non-members were treated? Not a single person who, maybe while not saying so out loud out of fear of personal safety, harbored doubts about such practices as war or slavery?

I have to doubt that, because in basically every culture we have actual written records from throughout history that has practiced war and slavery has always had critics of those behaviors, even when nearly universally-practiced religion was used as justification.

I'm not going to argue that it's not a huge minefield to publish, for public consumption, historically accurate roleplaying material featuring, for instance, indigenous Central/South American cultures. You could be a member of one of those communities and probably face backlash from somebody, somewhere else in the same (or a different, but similar) community. There's just no way to publish anything in today's society without having to face some public criticism. I just don't think that's such a bad thing. When we take other people's viewpoints of our work at face value, we learn something new about the world we many not previously have been exposed to, and that's great. I do think we, as a culture, are too quick to condemn the people behind the work. But I also believe that, if you're not willing to hear that criticism, and to take it that criticism as an opportunity to learn and grow as a creator, you may not be ready to produce work for public consumption yet.

And again, I do believe that there is a world of a difference between publishing works for public consumption, and wanting to explore these topics and these cultures with a group of friends in a closed setting in a way that is still humane and respectful.

One caveat I'll add: D&D, a game which definitely leans heavily on combat and killing to resolve problems, may not be the best game to do that in.

Besides that little caveat, the whole point of having things like orcs, elves, dwarves, centaurs and dragons in a setting is that they are not human. Since they are not human, there is no reason that they must be presented as human. It's quite possible that orcs are a monolithic, chaotic, and violent race. There is no reason that a non-human race would necessarily share every quality of humanity. But already this puts us in conflict. I flatly disagree with your claim: "The problem with replacing Mongols with Orcs is how D&D tends to present Orcs as a monolithic, chaotic and violent race."

No, the problem is not that at all. The problem with identifying Mongols with Orcs is that some might infer that you mean that Mongolians are not human whether you mean that or not. But there is nothing wrong with identifying Orcs as non-human. The problem comes with conflating things that aren't human with particular real world cultures. As long as I present Orcs as non-human with a non-human culture, I don't have a problem with that. Yet, you presumably will. So this is a further complexity.

You and I simply have a disagreement on how we feel about the way D&D handles non-human but still-mortal creatures. Which, after reading your perspective on Elves and Weapon Proficiencies, does not at all come as a surprise to me. I don't like the way D&D presents some of these races, particularly in the way they tend to blend culture with natural inborn properties. These are different philosophies, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you approach this. As such, I don't find myself disagreeing with basically anything you say above.

Me, I tend to prefer the way Eberron does things; if you're a creature with mortality, you have free will, and thus no inborn alignment (though potentially natural (at least on the ethics scale) and/or cultural inclinations towards one perspective or another, just as PC races commonly have). For unequivocal bad guys to mow through, I prefer the immortal beings; creatures whose very essence is defined by their evil: fiends. Also, especially for the pulpier bits, distinctively evil organizations. Which leads me to...

Maybe. Maybe not. To go full Godwin here because the culture presents itself to be picked on and if I used any other culture it would be "problematic", there are plenty of modern stories that present Nazi's as complex, non-monolithic, nuanced human beings, whether we are talking something like 'Band of Brothers' or 'Saving Private Ryan'. But it's not necessarily wrong to tell a story like 'The Dirty Dozen' or 'Inglorious Bastards' where the Nazis are faceless bad guys to mow through, and no one says when you do, "That's pretty damn problematic" because who wants to defend Nazis. But more than that, there has never been a thing as a monolithically good culture, and in any culture there have been periods and places where the culture as a whole acted with a collective monstrous resolve and did monstrous things. There are going to be times and places where the ugly reality of the situation requires you to present a people in a way that is overwhelmingly monstrous, or at the least that such a decision can be defended both on artistic and moral grounds. It can be good to show that nuance, as for example, Guy Gabriel Kay tries to show in the 'Lions of Al-Rassan'. But it's not necessarily the case that you are required to show that nuance or even cases where showing that nuance could itself be problematic.

Nazis are neither a race or a culture. They are an organization, an institution, and their mission statement is as close to our modern conception of what "evil" is as we are likely to get consensus on, as humanity as a whole. "Band of Brothers" did have that Nazi kid from Oregon, who may or may not have been swept up into circumstances outside of his control (it's been a long time since I've watched it, but I thought I remember him talking about how he moved back to join the German army because family did). I don't necessarily think that the point of these scene (and a lot of that show) was to say "look, there are sympathetic Nazis!", but rather, that war places an immense burden on a generation with little control over how they got there. See also: how much Winter struggles over having to kill that kid (who was a kid by any measure; the previous guy was coded as college-aged) during the invasion of Normandy.

Now, portraying all Germans from the 1930's-40's as Nazis or sympathizers is not only problematic but also deeply historically inaccurate; there were many Germans who either deeply critical of the regime or whom actively resisted. Not to mention how many people who were killed or tortured that were, for all intents and purposes, also Germans.

But do I have problems with portraying Nazis as faceless bad guys there to get mowed down? Ehhhh. I've been working on concepts of compassion and giving people more of the benefit of the doubt, but... there has to be a line somewhere, right? There's that quote "I can disagree with you about politics and still be friends unless your politics are rooted in my dehumanization", which I can get behind, but Nazis aren't so much about "dehumanization" as they are about eradication. That has to be the line, right? I mean, I'm always down for the possibility of redemption, but when your baseline belief, the core philosophy that makes one a Nazi, is "the eradication of all non-straight, non-able-bodied white people"; you have to be at such a point in your life to end up at that place that I can't begin to imagine the pathway back from that. Certainly not in a way that respects the rights to life of the people the Nazi might seek to harm in the interim. Sure, if they weren't an actual physical threat to anybody, let's try to convert them first, but Nazis who are active combatants? Sure, I'm of the mind that that could be fair game.

To quote Bethesda's PR VP Pete Hines, when asked if their new game Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus (a game very much marketed as fighting against an oppressive, modern-day nazi regime) was "poking the hornet's nest", he replied: "Maybe a little bit. But the hornet's nest is full of Nazis. So :):):):) those guys."

The whole thing is a minefield you aren't acknowledging. Consider a case like 'Dances with Wolves'. Now, 'Dances' is a part of a genre of 'anti-Westerns' where the normal dynamics of a classic Western are reversed. The Native Americans are presented as nuanced and human, where as the whites are presented as almost entirely morally bankrupt, ignorant and evil. But within even this frame work there are all sorts of complexities. It's only the Dakota that are presented as complex. Their neighbors the Pawnee are presented as faceless bad guys to mow through. That decision as to which tribe to present as heroic and which to present as monstrous turns out to be problematically based on which side allied with Europeans - and not in the way you might first expect. It is the Pawnee that historically have been portrayed as ignoble and savage despite and perhaps because they didn't fight back, while the Sioux are generally portrayed as noble even as villains (and rarely as villains) precisely because they fought back. Yet the Pawnee didn't fight the white settlers precisely because the Pawnee were on the losing side of a genocidal war with the Sioux just prior to the white settlers showing up. None of this nuance is captured in the movie. How should we respond to that? Meanwhile, it is also possible to attack 'Dances with Wolves' because it can be fit to a 'white savior narrative' where a white outsider is assimilated into an exotic culture and helps save it from its enemies and I've certainly seen it attacked in that manner. What are we to make of that? Why should the protagonist be white? Why should we see the culture through the eyes of the white character? Why shouldn't the Native Americans tell their own story? Is the depth of 'research' enough to defend it against that, or is that still problematic enough to damn it?

As I've stated above, there's no amount of research that is going to be enough to shield anyone from criticism, but not getting criticism shouldn't be the point. As you say, nuance is the key. I kind of thought that was assumed in "treating people and cultures in a humane and respectful way" but perhaps I should have been clearer. We can talk all day about "Dances With Wolves" and how it tackles some issues with nuance and others with a particularly callous lack of the same, or how "white savior" narratives are problematic even as the need to inspire white allies to action is always urgent (interestingly, the early press of that Great Wall movie released recently got a lot of flack for being another "white savior" movie because of the way Matt Damon was put front and center to put butts in seats, but every plot synopsis I've read of the film (I've admittedly not watched it yet) made it seem like Damon's character was more of a clueless outsider and a sidekick to Chinese heroes in a Chinese story told by Chinese filmmakers, which is probably actually the best way to go about such a narrative. "Big Trouble in Little China" is a valiant effort of this sort of dynamic but still centers too much of the story on its white characters, even though Jack Burton is the living definition of "clueless sidekick in way over his head". Also... well, we'll get there later.) This is all besides the point however.

I was once in a workshop with a ton of white people and very few people of color, and we were talking about race, and the white people were hemming and hawing and taking up a lot of space and time to fumble their way to basically, sort of, in a round about way, say they didn't speak much in discussions about race because they were too afraid of saying the wrong thing (but not too afraid to take up basically all of the meeting to really uncomfortably get to that point, but that's neither here nor there.) By the time I had an opportunity to speak, we were just about out of time, so I was asked to encapsulate what I had to say within ten seconds. I said: "We all stay stupid crap all the time; that shouldn't stop us from having a conversation."

Now, I'm certain that that isn't an appropriate framework for every possible space, but I think it's a great one for a lot of them, and that includes discussions of "problematic" pop cultural artifacts. I think it's important for content creators to make the effort to try to do the right thing, which includes, at bare minimum, not only just doing the research, but also hiring consultants with actual first-hand experience and knowledge (i.e; members of a culture if the main subject is different from your own) to help you better introduce that necessary nuance into the narrative. And people will object, because as you so astutely point out, there is no such thing as a "universal human", and because of that there is no universal personal story, and so there will always be people whose personal story will not be represented well (if at all) in the stories they feel should have done so. Do you think there's anywhere close to a kind of consensus within black liberation movements about the collective works of Spike Lee? Because I can assure you there is not.

The point is, putting content out for consumption should start a conversation, the results of which everyone involved in can learn something from. But when content makers don't put that effort or energy in to do any kind of research or reach out to members of the affected community for consultation, they kind of deserve the condemnation they get. And yes, one side of that is often too quick to condemn what they should instead be critiquing. On the flipside, I think that many content makers are too quick to get defensive, to ignore even thoughtful and measured critique as nothing but dismissive condemnation.

And yet on the other hand, if the story was through the eyes of Native Americans, wouldn't some people have objected if the story had been created and told by a white person? Wouldn't some of said that that was a morally gray area at best?

Yes, and yes. Talented people with the power and influence to create broad-reaching content about cultures not their own should instead be using that talent, power, and influence to help support works from within the culture and bring those works to broader audiences. We call this in the business "signal boosting" and it is significantly preferable than cashing in on stories that aren't yours to tell, which is another reason why "Big Trouble in Little China" doesn't work nearly as well as a piece about white allies as "The Great Wall", for instance, or why "Dances with Wolves" was kind of destined to run into the kinds of issues it ultimately ran into. To make a profit off of another culture's oppression is shady as hell; to do so with the intention of actually helping their cause definitely trends into a moral middle; while "signal boosting" is definitely the way to go. Note that James Cameron tried to skirt around this issue when he made "Avatar"; how well he did so is in the eye of the beholder but there are people I love and whose opinions I value on both sides of that fence.

Answer those questions in an objective and non-subjective manner if this is simple. And if the answer is, "Well, of course it is subjective.", then it can't be simple, because there are simply too many different voices and viewpoints that could be brought into any conversation.

Except they are simple, because in the case of the OP, there aren't "too many different voices and viewpoints", there are roughly six, and they've all already presumably entered into a social contract (deliberately or unconsciously) which involves a certain amount of trust. Publishing for public consumption, as I've stated several times in this post, is a whole different ballgame and certainly much more complicated and much more subjective of a subject.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Putting something out for public consumption is a very different beast altogether.

I very much disagree, but I find I lack the spirit to hit this trail again. Suffice to say that I feel that when you put out something for public consumption, it very much ought to be with the expectation that you can get honest and nonjudgmental feedback, that people will view your work charitably and with good will, and that they will fall to negative views of you only with the greatest reluctance. On that basis rests pretty much all of civil society.

Moreover, by making this argument I think you are making a huge cop out. You claim it's simpler than people make it, but then you have no revealed that you only if people never actually publish their thoughts but instead keep them private. Well, then it turns out your assertion that it is simple is completely hollow and weak, and in fact when you actually address the questions of the OP the way that I read them, then you concede that they are really complex and further fail to offer any real answer beyond that, yes indeed it is complex.

And finally, I find this whole 'its simple if you keep it private' bit reeks of instuitionalized discrimination.

Perhaps we could all stand to take a step back and approach situations like this as if we were speaking to a good friend we know meant well. I know I certainly could stand to do that more.

You think? I'm actually of the opinion that this is all very simple, but for reasons very far from yours and which are much closer to this sentiment.

I suppose I should have been clearer in what I mean by "human" is

I should have been clearer what criticism I was making. I meant that on a certain level I think it would be cool to have a culture drawn from the Native American nations where each tribe really did have a unique identity, some climbing up from the underworld on a cornstalk, others coming down as voyagers from the stars, some made by the coyote spirit, and others rising up from the blood of a slain giant, or what have you (right off the top of my head, I can't recall the exact legends each nation had about itself, so I apologize if I messed up a reference). Low Fantasies and sometimes even High Fantasies are often grounded in the idea that the superstitions of the past are literal truth, and I think it would make a pretty cool setting. However, I think it's probably not something I would publish and not just because of today's too PC environment and me not wanting to deal with the distraction because to be honest I rather enjoy thumbing my nose at that crowd. Rather, it's one of those things like having Fagin be a Jew. It's not necessarily wrong, and it was well researched and grounded in reality (in that the character was inspired by a real person), and Dickens wasn't 'being racist' to create the character, and Fagin is in fact a complex and human character, but nonetheless I think like Dickens I would have edited it out when asked. There are distractions and then there are distractions that mean someone is missing the point and missing the point in a completely horrible manner.

Your views that the individuals within a race (and to a necessarily lesser extent a culture) differ more from each other than they do from other people outside of that society aligns with mine and you don't need to convince me of it. Indeed, I'm delighted to see you make your argument in this manner. Nor do you need to convince me that dissent exists within society, or in that there is a strange constancy to certain beliefs about how people ought to behave.

I'm not going to argue that it's not a huge minefield to publish, for public consumption, historically accurate roleplaying material featuring indigenous Central/South American cultures.

Well, there you go then.

Me, I tend to prefer the way Eberron does things; if you're a create with mortal, you have free will, and thus no inborn alignment (though potentially natural and/or cultural inclinations towards one perspective or another, just as PC races commonly have). For unequivocal bad guys to mow through, I prefer the immortal beings; creatures whose very essence is defined by their evil: fiends. Also, especially for the pulpier bits, distinctively evil organizations.

I've seen it taken to the point that demons have to be presented as basically human and with free will or you are being racist. One poster actually suggested D&D's dragons because they were color coded was actually some sort of racist dog-whistle. So while I think we are pretty much on the same page here, there is some pretty radical extremism (or it least, it strikes me as such) regarding presentation of the alien or the monstrous as some sort of inherent othering and thus problematic. There is an irony about this I'll touch on in a moment.

Nazis are neither a race or a culture. They are an organization, an institution...

You are completely and utterly wrong here, again both by the dictionary definition and even in this case by academic definitions. The Nazi's were most certainly by every measurement a culture. Indeed, few cultures in the history of cultures have ever been so consciously a culture or were so conscious of the power of culture. They were the sort of culture that produced cultural ministries by the handful dedicated to promoting their culture, purifying their culture, and spreading their culture. They produced an entire body of unique philosophy, literature, art, architecture, and scholarship. In a very short period of time, owing to their consciousness about being a culture and the fact that they yoked much of Europe into the project, they produced a body of cultural works vaster than many other long enduring cultures. Indeed, the culture is unfortunately still extant and influential and has members that adhere to it. You are quite right that it is a very evil, venomous and destructive culture and the fundamental basis of the culture was absolutely indefensible, but it is a culture.

Are you anxious to deny it is a culture because you subscribe to the idea that all cultures are equally valuable and worthwhile?

"Band of Brothers" did have that Nazi kid from Oregon...

Oh much more than that. There is that German MP who hitches a ride with his American counterpart after the war is over. There are the Nazi sympathizers who are brutally murdered or tortured in retaliation, and most of all there is the German general at the end whose speech to his defeated is allowed to summarize the whole work. In essence, a Nazi is allowed to give voice to the feelings of the heroes. Watch it again.

And here we get to that bit of irony.

But do I have problems with portraying Nazis as faceless bad guys there to get mowed down? Ehhhh. I've been working on concepts of compassion and giving people more of the benefit of the doubt, but... there has to be a line somewhere, right? There's that line "I can disagree with you about politics and still be friends unless your politics are rooted in my dehumanization", which I can get behind, but Nazis aren't so much about "dehumanization" as they are about eradication. That has to be the line, right?

Does there? You see I get a feeling from these statements and the ones that follow them that I might be much more willing to call out a lot of different cultures as being evil and not just the usual white suspects. But on the other hand I also feel that there is vastly more humanity in the members of those cultures than you are used to conceding. You see, where I'm standing the line is drawn above all of us and we all far short of it, not just the Nazis. We're all on the wrong side of the line, and that means ironically we all make the cut. And if anyone gets killed out of this, it's only because they represented a clear and present danger and killing them was the tragic only and last available solution to preventing the triumph of evil and worse horrors.

I kinda find it weird that your like, "If the Nazi's are active combatants you can mow them down as faceless enemies, but the Turks... I wouldn't go that far." Like if I'm telling a war story I have some moral obligation to judge whether or not the opposing side deserves a nuanced presentation? And as far as that goes, the Turks don't exactly have clean hands. There are plenty of times that I think they could pass the bad enough to be faceless villains test you are offering even if I cared to accept that standard. No, I think you can tell a perfectly valid story of nuanced Nazi's mowing down faceless Americans, and I say that as someone who detests Nazis and is about as Patriotic as you can find. What I think you can't necessarily do and be moral about it is glamorize that or glorify the culture, and even more particularly what you can't do is glamorize or glorify the cause. But I don't think as a story teller you have to be making nuanced commentary about the Moors, Franks, Vikings, Romans, or whomever is on the other side. The other side is allowed to be the enemy in the story.

I said: "We all stay stupid crap all the time; that shouldn't stop us from having a conversation."

I agree; but this goes back to my point that the public sphere and the private sphere ought not be very different. If we don't have that assumption of good will in the public sphere, then we can't have the conversation. We have a bunch of people shouting at each other while sticking their fingers in their ears and generally emulating the antics of two year olds.

Do you think there's anywhere close to a kind of consensus within black liberation movements about the collective works of Spike Lee? Because I can assure there is not.

I would hope not. If there really was universal agreement over something, we might find reason to think that the differences between us were greater than we imagine. I'd love to get past the point where we think we can bring that one person of color into a conversation and they have the authority to speak for everyone that "looks like them". Out in the real world, races don't actually have single appointed and authorized spokespersons who can give you the take you need to know when you want to know anything, and yet we often treat them as if they did.

Anyway, I still disagree over who gets to "tell what story", which you probably aren't surprised by. I don't think there is anything shady about having characters and protagonists that don't look like you and don't have your life experiences, and if there were something shady about it, it only highlights how legitimate is the complaint of the original poster.

Except they are simple, because in the case of the OP, there aren't "too many different voices and viewpoints", there are roughly six, and they've all already presumably entered into a social contract (deliberately or unconsciously) which involves a certain amount of trust. Publishing for public consumption, as I've stated several times in this post, is a whole different ballgame and certainly much more complicated and much more subjective of a subject.

Why don't you try answering the question in the form I think it was asked, which is as I read it about producing works for public consumption. Though, as I said, I don't actually agree there is a big distinction except perhaps in the expected quality and organization and sophistication of the presentation.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
I very much disagree, but I find I lack the spirit to hit this trail again. Suffice to say that I feel that when you put out something for public consumption, it very much ought to be with the expectation that you can get honest and nonjudgmental feedback, that people will view your work charitably and with good will, and that they will fall to negative views of you only with the greatest reluctance. On that basis rests pretty much all of civil society.

Moreover, by making this argument I think you are making a huge cop out. You claim it's simpler than people make it, but then you have no revealed that you only if people never actually publish their thoughts but instead keep them private. Well, then it turns out your assertion that it is simple is completely hollow and weak, and in fact when you actually address the questions of the OP the way that I read them, then you concede that they are really complex and further fail to offer any real answer beyond that, yes indeed it is complex.

The question was about his group. He literally says he is 99% sure he is never going to publish it. You are the one turning the conversation into something it was not.

And finally, I find this whole 'its simple if you keep it private' bit reeks of instuitionalized discrimination.

You're going to have to explain to me how you get to that point, because the leaps in logic just do not follow for me. Private spaces provide the freedom to explore concepts and discuss honestly topics that many would be extremely uncomfortable speaking openly and honestly about in the public space. Again, I'm not saying this as cover for rampant racism or sexism or what have you, but for people who genuinely mean well but who also genuinely fear saying the wrong thing for either or causing offense or actual harm to other people.

I should have been clearer what criticism I was making. I meant that on a certain level I think it would be cool to have a culture drawn from the Native American nations where each tribe really did have a unique identity, some climbing up from the underworld on a cornstalk, others coming down as voyagers from the stars, some made by the coyote spirit, and others rising up from the blood of a slain giant, or what have you (right off the top of my head, I can't recall the exact legends each nation had about itself, so I apologize if I messed up a reference). Low Fantasies and sometimes even High Fantasies are often grounded in the idea that the superstitions of the past are literal truth, and I think it would make a pretty cool setting. However, I think it's probably not something I would publish and not just because of today's too PC environment and me not wanting to deal with the distraction because to be honest I rather enjoy thumbing my nose at that crowd.

Have you checked out Ehdrighor? You should check out Ehdrighor.

There's a difference between a really-well researched and well-workshopped fantasy world based in part on Indigenous American mythology and religion and one created based on a bunch of Native American tropes and stereotypes you pulled out of your rear end (well, technically, out of popular culture) because you think it sounds cool.

Rather, it's one of those things like having Fagin be a Jew. It's not necessarily wrong, and it was well researched and grounded in reality (in that the character was inspired by a real person), and Dickens wasn't 'being racist' to create the character, and Fagin is in fact a complex and human character, but nonetheless I think like Dickens I would have edited it out when asked. There are distractions and then there are distractions that mean someone is missing the point and missing the point in a completely horrible manner.

Where you say " avoiding distractions that miss the point", I say "avoiding unintentionally causing harm", though as someone who has never been able to stomach Dickens I can't say I'm familiar with your specific reference here. I think the tipping point here comes with whether how necessary the characteristic is. How essential was it for Fagin to be a Jew? Was it a core part of his character; something that drastically changed the narrative when this was changed? Or was it a minor characteristic, an accident of biography, that hurt nothing to be removed? The Merchant of Venice asked its audience, at a point, to consider sympathy for its Jewish villain (though there is of course plenty to critique elsewhere in the script). Black Panther had a black villain. Both were complex characters, with at least some legitimate grievances based on those identities the audiences are asked to understand. Would that have been true of a Jewish Fagin? I'm genuinely curious here because, like I said, not familiar with the source material. I think if that identity had been as incidental as it sounds, I would also have made the exact same changes Dickens made and you would have made (though clearly not for the same reasons!)

I've seen it taken to the point that demons have to be presented as basically human and with free will or you are being racist. One poster actually suggested D&D's dragons because they were color coded was actually some sort of racist dog-whistle. So while I think we are pretty much on the same page here, there is some pretty radical extremism (or it least, it strikes me as such) regarding presentation of the alien or the monstrous as some sort of inherent othering and thus problematic. There is an irony about this I'll touch on in a moment.

I mean, every movement has those that take concepts well beyond their logical extremes. To the extent that I wouldn't be surprised if either of those examples were meant as satire or parody (see also Poe's Law), but then, I also wouldn't be that surprised if they weren't either.

You are completely and utterly wrong here, again both by the dictionary definition and even in this case by academic definitions. The Nazi's were most certainly by every measurement a culture. Indeed, few cultures in the history of cultures have ever been so consciously a culture or were so conscious of the power of culture. They were the sort of culture that produced cultural ministries by the handful dedicated to promoting their culture, purifying their culture, and spreading their culture. They produced an entire body of unique philosophy, literature, art, architecture, and scholarship. In a very short period of time, owing to their consciousness about being a culture and the fact that they yoked much of Europe into the project, they produced a body of cultural works vaster than many other long enduring cultures. Indeed, the culture is unfortunately still extant and influential and has members that adhere to it. You are quite right that it is a very evil, venomous and destructive culture and the fundamental basis of the culture was absolutely indefensible, but it is a culture.

Are you anxious to deny it is a culture because you subscribe to the idea that all cultures are equally valuable and worthwhile?

No, I think we're just using different definitions of culture, which is another one of those "academic-critical-race-theory-definition-vs-dictionary-definition" disconnects in which I think of culture in a much more specific context than you are (I also wouldn't consider, for example "drug culture" as a "culture" within the context that I'm using it here). It should be noted that my objections are rooted within this much more specific definition instead of in what you would be technically correct in stating is the dictionary definition. Clearly I do not consider all beliefs, values, and institutions of equal value and worthiness. Also, I would consider the English, Dutch, and Spanish of the Age of Imperialism to be very distinct cultures in this mode, and well, you know how I happen to feel about those cultures already.

Oh much more than that. There is that German MP who hitches a ride with his American counterpart after the war is over. There are the Nazi sympathizers who are brutally murdered or tortured in retaliation, and most of all there is the German general at the end whose speech to his defeated is allowed to summarize the whole work. In essence, a Nazi is allowed to give voice to the feelings of the heroes.

I had forgotten the bit about the "sympathizers", though to be honest there's a lot more going on there in terms of gender politics and what certain people have to do for survival that lends that particular scene far more nuance than simply "these are nazi sympathizers getting tortured and murdered".

Watch it again.

I'm definitely going to now.

Does there?

I think there does? I mean, I already know how you feel about Popper's Paradox, but that's the relevant logic I have to turn to here. Except in this instance we're replacing "intolerance" with "eradication".

You see I get a feeling from these statements and the ones that follow them that I might be much more willing to call out a lot of different cultures as being evil and not just the usual white suspects. But on the other hand I also feel that there is vastly more humanity in the members of those cultures than you are used to conceding.

On the one hand, I really want to follow you where you're going with this. On the other hand, ask a Holocaust survivor how they feel about the excuse "I was just following orders." Because that's the best Nazis got. And I understand the appeal of getting swept up in a nationalistic fervor and then feeling kind of forced into following that to some pretty damn evil conclusions but... there were also objectors. There was a resistance. There was a moral choice, certainly not an easy one, but the best of them chose poorly. There's that short story/poem "The Hangman"... there's the line "the only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing", which I have to follow with... are they really good men then?

Of course, on the other hand, does that make them all easily disposable? Worth killing? Worth turning into faceless hordes of bad guys to mow through?

I'm obviously not convinced of this one way or another. This is an idea that is neither s easy, nor is it something that I think we as a society have spent nearly enough time thinking about. I certainly haven't, and as someone who spends way too much time analyzing game design (including video games) I'd probably count myself as an outlier in that regard.

You see, where I'm standing the line is drawn above all of us and we all far short of it, not just the Nazis. We're all on the wrong side of the line, and that means ironically we all make the cut. And if anyone gets killed out of this, it's only because they represented a clear and present danger and killing them was the tragic only and last available solution to preventing the triumph of evil and worse horrors.

I'm with you so far, though I think this can easily be twisted into a form of moral relativity which I don't think either of us are on board for.

I kinda find it weird that your like, "If the Nazi's are active combatants you can mow them down as faceless enemies, but the Turks... I wouldn't go that far." Like if I'm telling a war story I have some moral obligation to judge whether or not the opposing side deserves a nuanced presentation? And as far as that goes, the Turks don't exactly have clean hands. There are plenty of times that I think they could pass the bad enough to be faceless villains test you are offering even if I cared to accept that standard. No, I think you can tell a perfectly valid story of nuanced Nazi's mowing down faceless Americans, and I say that as someone who detests Nazis and is about as Patriotic as you can find. What I think you can't necessarily do and be moral about it is glamorize that or glorify the culture, and even more particularly what you can't do is glamorize or glorify the cause. But I don't think as a story teller you have to be making nuanced commentary about the Moors, Franks, Vikings, Romans, or whomever is on the other side. The other side is allowed to be the enemy in the story.

A lot of people have blood on their hands, which is rather their point. You've caught me in a bit of a hypocrisy, and one I'm not sure I can fully square. Partially because I'm human, and mostly because "Nazis". Does history have comparable or even worse villains? Maybe? And who knows, maybe in 800 years we'll be talking about the Nazis in the exact same breath as Pol Pot and Stalin and other horrific and targeted atrocities. That may just be a cultural norm, to equate "Nazi" as "Faceless Villain", that I need to break away from. I tell you though, the recent resurgence in Neo-Nazism sure isn't making that any easier.

So yeah, I can see how "It's okay to mow down Nazis with reckless abandon but not the Turks" can seem like a head-scratcher. What can I say? I'm a work in progress. We all have our biases, and maybe I'm not ready to shed that bias of "Nazis" yet. Maybe I need to be.

As to the other question, no, you are obviously not required to put a human face on the enemy in a war story. I think that kind of story sounds dreadful and dull to me, personally, and definitely runs the risk of crossing some serious racist lines depending on who is on which side. I think it's a lot better to include that level of nuance, not just to avoid unfortunate implications but also because I think it'd make a better story.

But then, I don't particularly like a lot of traditional war stories. In part for those reasons.

I agree; but this goes back to my point that the public sphere and the private sphere ought not be very different. If we don't have that assumption of good will in the public sphere, then we can't have the conversation. We have a bunch of people shouting at each other while sticking their fingers in their ears and generally emulating the antics of two year olds.

Obviously I think I agree about the necessity of the assumption of good will within the public sphere. There's actually been a lot of internal critique recently within social justice and critical race/gender/sexuality/etc/studies about what could be called "call-out culture" and analyzing who that's really benefiting. I don't know how inclined you are to read contrary perspective, but if you are, I've been reading two books called Joyful Militancy and Emergent Strategy that have shifted my perspective quite a bit (and I would argue that it could probably be shifted further).

Anyway, I still disagree over who gets to "tell what story", which you probably aren't surprised by. I don't think there is anything shady about having characters and protagonists that don't look like you and don't have your life experiences, and if there were something shady about it, it only highlights how legitimate is the complaint of the original poster.

I don't necessarily think there's anything shady with what you state either. But I think there's a significant difference between "writing a black protagonist" and "telling a black story". I think you're interpreting what I call "morally gray" as "bad"; which to me are not the same thing. I'm thinking more morally neutral; not bad, but there's an objectively better path to take; one with the side benefit of actually doing more to advance the cause you care for more than publishing your own work about it. If your intention is tell black stories with the intention of reversing racist inequity, for instance, why not invest that power and energy in lifting up black authors to telling their own stories, and to amplify the stories they're already telling?

Why don't you try answering the question in the form I think it was asked, which is as I read it about producing works for public consumption. Though, as I said, I don't actually agree there is a big distinction except perhaps in the expected quality and organization and sophistication of the presentation.

This is answered above. But I'll reiterate: there is something to be said for the power of private spaces built on shared trust that allows us to be more open and honest with each other than in subjecting ourselves to the public sphere. I think you and I would agree that there shouldn't be, but there is. Which is why I think that it is much more complex and fraught to tackle the issue of publishing content inspired by cultures not your own than it is to create content for your home game. I think in both cases it's incumbent on the content creator to do their fracking research, and to try to listen and reflect on any honest, open, criticism they receive. But that bar is much higher once you're publishing content for the public.
 
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Schmoe

Adventurer
I agree with [MENTION=6796661]MNblockhead[/MENTION], I don't worry about it.

In my games, when I look at broad strokes of a culture, I'm much more interested in themes and generalities, and in that case I'm quite comfortable drawing on caricatures and stereotypes because they are effective at conveying the themes; they are quickly and easily understood. If I want to base a culture or race on the Mongols and their aspect of terrifying raids and fearsome campaigns of pillaging, I'll do so. If I want to depict another culture as partaking in ritual sacrifice and draw on Aztec lore for inspiration, I'll do so as well. I've caricatured North American WASP bourgeoisie, and I've caricatured Arabian dervishes because, frankly, the literal interpretation of these cultures is far less important to my game than the themes they represent. I don't do this because I believe those cultures to really be caricatures, but because it is an effective means to convey certain aspects of the cultures in my world that create a more vibrant backdrop for the game, and since I play with people I know fairly well, I trust them to know that the portrayal in our game does not reflect my real-world beliefs.

So far no one has been offended in my games, and if they were I'd be happy to discuss it with them.

So my advice would be: Don't sweat it.
 

Schmoe

Adventurer
<snip a whole lotta text>
Does there? You see I get a feeling from these statements and the ones that follow them that I might be much more willing to call out a lot of different cultures as being evil and not just the usual white suspects. But on the other hand I also feel that there is vastly more humanity in the members of those cultures than you are used to conceding. You see, where I'm standing the line is drawn above all of us and we all far short of it, not just the Nazis. We're all on the wrong side of the line, and that means ironically we all make the cut. And if anyone gets killed out of this, it's only because they represented a clear and present danger and killing them was the tragic only and last available solution to preventing the triumph of evil and worse horrors.

I kinda find it weird that your like, "If the Nazi's are active combatants you can mow them down as faceless enemies, but the Turks... I wouldn't go that far." Like if I'm telling a war story I have some moral obligation to judge whether or not the opposing side deserves a nuanced presentation? And as far as that goes, the Turks don't exactly have clean hands. There are plenty of times that I think they could pass the bad enough to be faceless villains test you are offering even if I cared to accept that standard. No, I think you can tell a perfectly valid story of nuanced Nazi's mowing down faceless Americans, and I say that as someone who detests Nazis and is about as Patriotic as you can find. What I think you can't necessarily do and be moral about it is glamorize that or glorify the culture, and even more particularly what you can't do is glamorize or glorify the cause. But I don't think as a story teller you have to be making nuanced commentary about the Moors, Franks, Vikings, Romans, or whomever is on the other side. The other side is allowed to be the enemy in the story.

Thank you for this. This is one of the most eloquent and salient defenses I've seen describing why I feel it's ok to depict a culture as "the enemy" in a game.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Two details:

1: My campaign was done using the Warhammer frpg 2nd ed system*, not D&D, but not the Warhammer setting (rather the one I created). Incidentally, it's a great system for low-fantasy, pseudo-historical games.

2: I say I'm 99% sure I won't publish because of the several obstacles: the amount of work, possible licencing issues (see point 1), futility (is it good enough? With the gazillion of adventures published, would anyone even see it)... and lastly because it could be seen as offensive.

So the reality is that I probably won't publish, but the *idea* of publication is real.


* with some modifications due to tech level in 1150, also others where I imported magical systems from the 1980s game Dragon Warrior, alongside the Warhammer system (elves just had better magic).
 
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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Well I published the Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror (PFRPG) as an imprint under Rite Publishing, though it's 100% my IP, and I share copyright with Rite Publishing. I am the concept creator, developer, cartographer, and project director for Kaidan at Rite. I am half Japanese, and while my ethnicity alone doesn't give me a particular expertise with a feudal Japan analog, I'm also an amateur historian and folklorist, especially of Japan, as well as a 40 year D&D and other game system GM/player, combined with the fact I "believe" I see Japanese culture through the eyes of my mother and Japanese relatives, rather than through the rose-colored glasses of a westerner. I think I have the "right stuff" to producing a more authentic Japanese horror setting than others.

While I love Oriental Adventures since 1e when it first released and played it - at the same time, I felt some things published about such a setting was either wrong, or at least concepts taken out of context, and always wanted to do my own feudal Japan setting. I shared this feeling with every edition of Asian styled games through L5R, 3x Rokugan, even Pathfinder Dragon Empires/Minkai of Golarion. None of those met my standards.

Rather than trying to be comprehensive to all things feudal Japan. I picked a limited number of specific concepts I wanted to tackle, then placed tons of nuance to those limited subjects to create what became the Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror.

1. History - well obviously Kaidan is a fictional setting, so how much history can you fit into fantasy? Actually the founding of Kaidan was based on real world events - the Genpei War (1180 - 1185 AD) was a fight between two legitimate emperors to the throne - one the former emperor who was facing a possible coup de grace, was suggested by his father-in-law, Taira no Kiyomori (last name first) to abdicate the throne. Which he did and fled to Kiyomori's team to spirit the former emperor away. In truth, Kiyomori, that emperor's Chief Minister was behind the coup with the goal of encouraging the abdication. Then Kiyomori, appointed his grandson (the former emperor's 1 year old son) as emperor of Japan, with Kiyomori as his regent until his grandson came of age. After 5 years of war between the Taira and Minamoto samurai houses, at the final battle of Dan-no-ura, in a naval engagement, the Minamoto had surrounded the Taira ship. Rather than being captured and forced to surrender, the entire Taira imperial family chose to leap into the sea and drown, instead.

Where I ad-libbed to history was having Kiyomori's wife (Kiyomori was dead by this time) holding her grandson, the 5 year old emperor in her arms, uttered a dark wish that went something like "How could the world be so cruel as to allow the rightful emperor of Japan to die like a dog. If all things were just the Taira would win this war and rule Japan for a thousand years" - then she leapt into the sea with her grandson. Emma-o, the Lord of Jigoku (Hell) heard this delicious dark wish consummated with the suicide of an entire imperial house and he decreed a dark curse that brought Kaidan into being. The drowning Taira house was saved and brought to land again, but instead of Japan they found themselves on Kaidan, and would rule (as undead) forever. That is how I brought Japanese history into Kaidan.

2. I wanted to keep both the Japanese social caste system (nobility, samurai, commoners, and the oppressed caste) and combine it with the Buddhist reincarnation cycle (heaven, asuras, human, animal, hungry ghost and hell), rather than hand-wave those two, as many other publishers of Asian settings have done. Heaven became the noble caste, Asuras became the samurai caste, Human became the commoner caste, Animal became the yokai (animal base folklore beings - kappa, kitsune, hengeyokai and tengu), Hungry Ghost became the Hinin/Eta (oppressed caste) and Hell remained the only actual different plane of existence - the other reincarnated planes of existence were cosmically tied to the social caste system - all planes co-existing in Kaidan. I eschewed achieving enlightenment (Nirvana), used a Karma score to track PC deeds done, and made the Buddhist reincarnation cycle (the Great Wheel of Life) into a slightly altered Buddhist representation in Kaidan. Notably, I got a Buddhist "bishop" to look at what I did and got an "unofficial" praise and approval for the work done, so I know I didn't do a disservice to a real world religion.

3. I used Japanese naming conventions and actual Japanese words for people, character classes/archetypes, cities, animals, folklore beings and more. I included a pronunciation guide and a glossary with English translations with the naming done in the setting. I didn't make up Japanese sounding words - it's all straight from the actual language.

4. Culturally I got deeply nuanced, often explaining odd cultural data in the form of gray boxed text as it corresponded to adventure or rules supplement text. Many of the rules supplements got a huge section of fluff to explain these cultural details, even before getting into crunch. For example in Way of the Samurai (PFRPG) a class/faction rules supplement, there's 11 pages of fluff dealing with origins of the samurai, describing samurai as a social caste, rather than a character class. I fully explained Bushido and it's origins in samurai house codes. I explained when it was proper to commit seppuku (ritual suicide) when it was not, when you could do something we might consider dishonorable and not feel compelled to commit suicide - there are nuanced reasons when it's appropriate and when it isn't. Since Pathfinder didn't have an Honor system (at the time yet) we delved deeply into personal honor and Kaidan's honor system. At crunch we offered 5 different kinds of samurai archetypes from noble samurai down to the original samurai as a mounted archer, rather than the katana wielding duelist of the Tokugawa Era 450 years later. We introduced a ranger and a wizard who were also members of the samurai social caste. Two prestige classes, one a more resilient samurai, another a bureaucrat with immense political power. We even created a samurai clan creation rules based off the city stat block and included 36 kammon (samurai house crests) that players could use as their family symbol. All this to heavily instruct users of that guide what it meant to be samurai, and more than what is usually exposed in media and previously published games. We gave the same treatment to Yakuza (members of the Hungry Ghost or Hinin/Eta caste), as well as accurate to folklore abilities and qualities of the yokai races.

Every book we released (15 in all) got this kind of detailed cultural treatment, even the one-shots and full modules.

Our goal was not to create an anime infused, "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", impossible sword work kind of Japan that others publish, but a more poignant and visceral touchstone - dread. The goal was to present Kaidan as Japan, through the perspective of the Japanese and convey that to people who chose to play our game.

Many critics/reviewers concede that Kaidan is the most authentic and realized version of fantasy feudal Japan ever published and a very spiritual setting (read the product reviews) - and I'd like to think that I did truly accomplish that. So while I may be biased, I think I created what I always intended to do, and did it well.

In response to this thread's title - I did it, and don't think I am damned at all! ;)

Final thought, since Kaidan is my IP, and I'm a small RPG publisher myself (Gamer Printshop), my next big project is to upgrade Kaidan from Pathfinder to Starfinder, as the Kaidan Interstellar Empire of Japanese Horror - feudal Japan crossed with MegaCorps and some cyberpunk aspects. Already have 2 designers working on it - one converting old Kaidan to new, while the other is developing new content. I will be the author, and so far it's looking like a 400 page guide, including 160 pages of art, maps, deck plans and tables (a big damn book), that will serve as a Setting Guide, GM's Guide, Player's Guide and 50 Monster Bestiary all in one comprehensive book with a tentative release date of Halloween 2018. So Kaidan is at it's next threshold in development...
 
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This is actually simpler than a lot of people make it out to be.

1) Do your research
2) Present the culture as human

What if I do really sh*tty research, and then present the culture as really bad/dumb humans?

I can think of so many ways in which this would go wrong. I don't think it is that simple. Here is what I would advise: Use real world cultures as inspiration for a fictional culture, but coat them in enough fantasy that they are not literally a stereotype of the culture they were based on.

For example, I have a faction of pirates in my campaign that are dark of skin, and are loosely based on various African tribes. But they are coated in enough fantasy, that they are not literally an offensive stereotype, plus there's a strong historical foundation for these sorts of pirate tribes.

And I also have cannibals in my campaign, but they are stereotype fantasy cannibals, as you might see in pulp adventure novels. Its in line with the general theme of the campaign setting.
 

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