D&D 5E MTOF: Elves are gender-swapping reincarnates and I am on board with it

Sacrosanct said:

As a cis white grognard, I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, way back in the uber sexist early 80s there was reference to Correlon being genderless, so it's not like they are completely revamping decades of elven lore in D&D. The foundation of this idea has always been there. And like literally any other supplement in D&D history about lore, it's easily ignored in your campaign if you don't like it. And if it helps make more people feel welcome and acknowledged, why would anyone be against it?

I really don't get the accusations of pandering like it's a bad thing. This literally has no effect on your game; no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play an elf who switches gender. TBH, it reminds me of that meme about how giving equal rights to others doesn't mean yours are being taken away because rights aren't like pie. Same here. Acknowledging other groups of people doesn't mean you are being forced to change how you play.

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The 80s − the era of gender-bender music bands, like Boy George, Eurythmics, and David Bowie.

D&D has always ‘pandered’ to pop culture.

Heh. On the other hand, D&D seems to always integrate popular trends in an obtuse way that seems to satisfy nobody.

Rules include both flavor and mechanics.

For some styles of D&D, the flavor (lore) is even more important than the mechanics for adjudicating what happens and what the game means.

Hriston said:

How do you explain the presence of Glorfindel at Rivendell in the Third Age after he fell fighting the balrog in the First Age?

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Well.... As it turns out, it was really only a flesh wound & he got better the next morning after a long rest.

I don't care about the gender swapping, but I do have some issues with "natural" reincarnation (rather than the spell) and elves. I feel like that messes with a lot of the theme of elves. There is a huge amount of lore surrounding elvish afterlives, the risk of death and fear from going out into the wider world because natural death isn't an aspect of the race, etc..

As for elves reincarnating in Tolkein lore, not really. "“He [FInrod] and Glorfindel were the only elves who were known to have been reincarnated before the War of Wrath”. There is quite the debate as to elves and reincarnation in that setting. Aman and Mandos played a meaningful role in the afterlife lore for Elves in that setting as well.

TwoSix said:

It should have been dwarves. It would have explained the classic trope of "Where are the dwarf women at?"

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In my dad's home-setting, this is exactly the case.

In my campaign setting,

Elves are an otherworldly magical community celebrating magic (Intelligence) and beauty (Charisma). They are eternally youthful − and range from hypermasculine ideals of beauty to hyperfeminine ideals of beauty, as well as individuals in between.

Their annual Revelry, when all the courts converge from across the planes, is also a time of excess, with competitions to demonstrate epic magic and stunning art. Magic duels to death, followed by resurrections, and hedonistic shows of music, illusion, alcohol and feasts. Mass magical rituals take place, that are sexual in nature.

During the Revelry, children are often conceived and to be born magically from rituals. Several parents may combine magically, carried in the womb of one, or developing in a nest, or being a statue come to life, or so on. Every elf birth is unique.

Yaarel said:

The 80s − the era of gender-bender music bands, like Boy George, Eurythmics, and David Bowie.

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That actually started in the 70s, not 80s. But if you don't think rampant sexism, homophobia, and transphobia was much worse then than now, then you either weren't old enough to remember, or haven't opened a history book. Many of those artists dressed androgynous or feminine, but god forbid if they ever actually came out as gay or trans. It was viewed as just an act on stage and that's how people preferred to convince themselves. It seems obvious in hindsight that Boy George and Freddie Mercury are/were gay/bi now, but back then not only was it not admitted, it was hidden from the larger population. Heck, gay bars were still being raided by police in the 80s, and the new AIDS epidemic was thought to be a gays only disease, and every gay person had it and was gonna spread it to you. There was a real fear that a woman having a gay friend would get AIDS and that prejudice was horrible. Just go watch Eddie Murphy RAW to see how even the more liberal areas of pop culture treated LGBT.

So, back to the point, D&D openly saying that the main elven god was neither male nor female was a pretty big deal, and since it's been around since pretty much the beginning of D&D, this entire discussion about the elven lore being gender fluid is not counter to how elven lore has been since the beginning of D&D. I think you're confusing "pandering" with "acknowledging".

I'll be perfectly honest here. Every time I hear someone use words like "pandering" or "catering" or "bending to their agenda" just by simply acknowledging that these people exist, I immediately come to a negative conclusion about that person because that's not what those words mean, and it's a way to dismiss the legitimacy of the concerns of others.

That Eddie Murphy stand-up routine, wow. I put that on a few weeks back and was completely shocked at how homophobic the routine was. And not only did the crowd laugh and applaud, this was what he opened the show with.

Comedy in particular doesn’t seem to have aged well from the 80s. So much of it seems cruel and hateful today.

Anyway, back to elves. One of the things I love about this is how much the ability to change genders upsets the drow, because it totally up-ends their societal structure.

Sacrosanct said:

That actually started in the 70s, not 80s. But if you don't think rampant sexism, homophobia, and transphobia was much worse then than now, then you either weren't old enough to remember, or haven't opened a history book. Many of those artists dressed androgynous or feminine, but god forbid if they ever actually came out as gay or trans. It was viewed as just an act on stage and that's how people preferred to convince themselves. It seems obvious in hindsight that Boy George and Freddie Mercury are/were gay/bi now, but back then not only was it not admitted, it was hidden from the larger population. Heck, gay bars were still being raided by police in the 80s, and the new AIDS epidemic was thought to be a gays only disease, and every gay person had it and was gonna spread it to you. There was a real fear that a woman having a gay friend would get AIDS and that prejudice was horrible. Just go watch Eddie Murphy RAW to see how even the more liberal areas of pop culture treated LGBT.

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Ralif Redhammer said:

Anyway, back to elves. One of the things I love about this is how much the ability to change genders upsets the drow, because it totally up-ends their societal structure.

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Yes --- great story hook.

I've also been thinking about how Lawful Good dwarves who just don't get it are an interesting area to explore . . . sort of a Hank Hill thing, where an unquestionably admirable person still has trouble dealing with people and things outside his comfort zone.

Come to think of it, I like the idea that a dwarf sorcerer from a particularly old-school clan would have to deal with rejection for having been "born that way."

Sacrosanct said:

I'll be perfectly honest here. Every time I hear someone use words like "pandering" or "catering" or "bending to their agenda" just by simply acknowledging that these people exist, I immediately come to a negative conclusion about that person because that's not what those words mean, and it's a way to dismiss the legitimacy of the concerns of others.

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I view the well-being of gay and transgender communities as good for the human species as a whole.