Attercop Attercop from Taunting to - Come and Get it.

Celebrim · Jun 14, 2018

Garthanos said:
Now that is pretty complex...
I remember seeing taunting rules long ago (might have been a house rule thing) and thought it might have been in the 2e kits (there was a taunt spell) but since I explored a lot of games it may have been from entirely different sources and I thought it was more like early 80s .

There are taunting rules for Kender in the Krynn source books.

The above only looks complicated. What is actually going on is that there are four relatively minor combat actions with relatively minor benefits or edge case uses that have been rolled into a single feat to make the feat worth taking. It would have been possible to write a simpler version by picking one of the actions and making it more powerful, but doing that would have encouraged cheese that would have stretched the bounds of credibility regarding what taunting can actually do in a fight. As written, if you want to build a character that uses Taunt as part of a battlefield control strategy, you can do that, but it requires a fairly strong investment to do it.

The other thing going on is that I generally prefer broad to deep. If I went narrow with one single deep ability, then a character would have to rely on stunts (which puts agency in the DMs court) rather than something explicitly outlined in the rules to do whatever reasonable things that I didn't provide for.

Garthanos · Jun 14, 2018

Celebrim said:
There are taunting rules for Kender in the Krynn source books.

Ah that is to be expected considering Bilbo being where most of us first "saw" it used in battle.

Celebrim said:
The above only looks complicated. What is actually going on is that there are four relatively minor combat actions with relatively minor benefits or edge case uses that have been rolled into a single feat to make the feat worth taking. It would have been possible to write a simpler version by picking one of the actions and making it more powerful, but doing that would have encouraged cheese that would have stretched the bounds of credibility regarding what taunting can actually do in a fight. As written, if you want to build a character that uses Taunt as part of a battlefield control strategy, you can do that, but it requires a fairly strong investment to do it.

The other thing going on is that I generally prefer broad to deep. If I went narrow with one single deep ability, then a character would have to rely on stunts (which puts agency in the DMs court) rather than something explicitly outlined in the rules to do whatever reasonable things that I didn't provide for.

For 4e I would expect some explicit "forced" movement distances and such. How would you convert the idea to 4e?

darkbard · Jun 14, 2018

Celebrim said:
From my 3.0 edition homebrew:

TAUNT [GENERAL]
Anyone can talk smack, but when you do it, it isn’t lame.
Prerequisite: Chr 13, 4 ranks diplomacy, 4 ranks bluff

Definitely a holdover from 3E, as you note. Since there are no "ranks" in skills in 4E, I would require training in Bluff or Diplomacy, which each opening two of your minor effects. If the character has training in both Bluff and Diplomacy, open up all four effects.

darkbard · Jun 14, 2018

Garthanos said:
For 4e I would expect some explicit "forced" movement distances and such. How would you convert the idea to 4e?

I would probably start with the Changeling's Trick racial power as a model: Minor Action, Bluff vs. Passive Insight, grants CA until EoYNT. Variations could use Diplomacy (of course) as the "attack" stat, and effects could be things like Mark the target, Pull or Slide the Target 2, etc.

darkbard · Jun 14, 2018

An alternative thought: if the encounter power limitation of the suggestion above is a dealbreaker, what about modeling the effects on the various Feat add-ons that give bonuses to an At-Will Powers like Vigilante Justice Style, Harlequin Style, Daring Performer, etc.

Celebrim · Jun 14, 2018

Garthanos said:
For 4e I would expect some explicit "forced" movement distances and such. How would you convert the idea to 4e?

You'd need a designer conversant in 4e, but I'm not. However, I can explain the general ideas involved and put them as close as I can in 4e terms.

The feat basically gives you in 4e terms foptions on how to use a minor action during a round, or alternately if you want to power up the feat, one free action per turn can be used on the feat. That's more limited than the 3e version, but 4e has a tighter action economy and the change would be made up elsewhere.

“Fight me, you son of a pig!”: Allows you to force a character to use its 'reaction' or 'opportunity' on you if you over come its Will defense (or Insight?). If it does, you have a significant advantage defending against the attack. In 3e, this can sometimes be significant because most things can only make 1 AoO a round, which means that your ally can now grapple the foe or quaff a potion or what not freely. I don't know what the limits on reactions or opportunities are in 4e, but presumably this would drain or limit them in a 4e version.
“Hey, Ugly!”: If you successfully overcome the targets Will defense (or Insight?), allows your ally to engage in a Stealth check as if they had concealment from the target of your taunt.
“My kid sister fights better than you.”: Whenever you are attacked, if you successfully overcome the target's Will defense (or Insight?), you grant the target a +2 bonus to hit you but the target gets a -4 debuff to AC until the start of your next turn. This is actually even more powerful in my game than this suggests, as forcing an offensive fighting stance means that they can't parry, can't use combat expertise, and so forth. Depending on the strategy of the thing fighting you, that can be a big deal. I don't know what if anything is the 4e equivalent.
"What are you chicken?”: If the target is not adjacent to any ally, and if you overcome the target's Will defense (or Insight?), than you can pull 3. That's the 4e simple version.

Garthanos · Jul 1, 2018

Celebrim said:
You'd need a designer conversant in 4e, but I'm not. However, I can explain the general ideas involved and put them as close as I can in 4e terms.

The feat basically gives you in 4e terms foptions on how to use a minor action during a round, or alternately if you want to power up the feat, one free action per turn can be used on the feat. That's more limited than the 3e version, but 4e has a tighter action economy and the change would be made up elsewhere.

“Fight me, you son of a pig!”: Allows you to force a character to use its 'reaction' or 'opportunity' on you if you over come its Will defense (or Insight?). If it does, you have a significant advantage defending against the attack. In 3e, this can sometimes be significant because most things can only make 1 AoO a round, which means that your ally can now grapple the foe or quaff a potion or what not freely. I don't know what the limits on reactions or opportunities are in 4e, but presumably this would drain or limit them in a 4e version.
“Hey, Ugly!”: If you successfully overcome the targets Will defense (or Insight?), allows your ally to engage in a Stealth check as if they had concealment from the target of your taunt.
“My kid sister fights better than you.”: Whenever you are attacked, if you successfully overcome the target's Will defense (or Insight?), you grant the target a +2 bonus to hit you but the target gets a -4 debuff to AC until the start of your next turn. This is actually even more powerful in my game than this suggests, as forcing an offensive fighting stance means that they can't parry, can't use combat expertise, and so forth. Depending on the strategy of the thing fighting you, that can be a big deal. I don't know what if anything is the 4e equivalent.
"What are you chicken?”: If the target is not adjacent to any ally, and if you overcome the target's Will defense (or Insight?), than you can pull 3. That's the 4e simple version.

4e may well split it up into a lot of places.

Here is a trick 4e has a universal option of aiding another's Defense, or Attack or Skill use. However in their base form they just arent worth the Standard Action to perform even though the action benefit for attacks and defenses are automatic.

However if we change it to a minor action they would simply be too useful at least at lower levels where there isnt much competition for minor actions , especially if that combined with the various other enhancements to aid actions the game has.

So my idea is as THIS form is a deception a way to represent the limitation I call "fool me once shame on you" is to make the minor action a once per encounter feature. This is not quite functional however as you need to be able to do all of this at range which none of the standard aid moves allow. (the AID defense improves the subjects defenses by 2)

Now we are talking! something that is getting valuable! lets call it 10 squares, let it affect any of the 3 AIDs and this function could even be allowed all the time where you either talk your ally into doing it right or beleaguer your enemy (but you have to spend a standard after the first time)

Although your Hey ugly isnt exactly the same as the aid stealth skill, perhaps we could add a clause to enable it.

Note if the ability lets you Aid Defense has some interesting if subtle effects - if you aide an allies defense you in general become a generally better target for an enemy (this is a component of 4es marking mechanic actually).

While the above doesnt give you a pull in 4e pulls are generally part of class/race OR skill powers.

A skill power in bluffing called "What are you Chicken" might work very well.

Garthanos · Jul 1, 2018

One might go further and tie in Bluff/Diplomacy by requiring that skill check you mentioned and compensating by increasing the benefit by making the effect higher ie increase the benefit to allies defense so it is slightly more than normal too.

The above would make it less valuable to characters not trained in those ie it becomes a purview of rogues and warlords, which now that i think of it may be a desire for the feat anyway. Though classically taunting was definitely used by garden variety fighting types who are less likely to be trained in those.

Tony Vargas · Jul 2, 2018

What is an Attercop, anyway, is it like an Ettercap that's graduated from the police academy?

Garthanos · Jul 2, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
What is an Attercop, anyway, is it like an Ettercap that's graduated from the police academy?

perhaps a distortion of "edderkopp" - norwegian for spider.... oh wait humor.

Attercop Attercop from Taunting to - Come and Get it.

Celebrim

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Garthanos

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darkbard

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darkbard

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darkbard

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Celebrim

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Garthanos

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Tony Vargas

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Garthanos

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