The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

5ekyu

Hero
Um, note that this is not factually correct.

Rock-Paper-Scissors is a perfectly balanced game. It does happen to be exceedingly dull, such that we don't play it as a game, but use it as a randomization method, but the point is still made.

Tic-Tac-Toe is a playable game, and perfectly balanced. It is also a solved game, such that no matter who starts, the game can *always* be forced into a draw.

The card game of poker is perfectly balanced - the odds are the same for everyone.


Now, two of these games are exceedingly simple - but that is what allows us to *know* they are perfectly balanced. When a game reaches sufficient complexity, it becomes difficult or impossible to know whether it is perfectly balanced. Chess is an example here - nobody has proven, in a mathematical sense, that there's a first-move advantage. It is only seen empirically, and the effect is not large. My competition-chess friends note to me that there's some argument as to whether the advantage is technical, or merely psychological. We can't *know* for sure, because the game has too many possible plays to analyze fully.

This is not to say that any edition of D&D has ever been secretly perfectly balanced, and we didn't know it because ti si too complicated. I just don't think this discussion has a need for false absolutes.

It may help for me to pitch the idea that there may be an RPG that *is* perfectly balanced, in terms of all PCs being of equivalent power - FATE Accelerated.

If we do not consider it perfectly balanced, I think it reveals the ways in which no RPG really can be.
Agree on a number of points.

Its traditional wisdom that in competitive chess white should play for win and black for draw (parabis ceteris) and it seems obvious that "teaching" would produce results that validate it.

Of i wete going to discuss "perfectly balanced" rpgs or even "quite balanced" rpgs i would veer way away from any crunch type gaming and head to places like Screentime where the "currency" is basically "effectiveness" and all (vast majority at least) of everything else is just narrative legos. (My barbarian with axe is put of currency so the demon is a blob monster that is immune to axes and who likes how barbarians smell.)

The more a system tries to add crunch, imx, the narrower and narrower a subset of its actual games in play that crunch serves to balance well and reflect/serve well.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Crits are worth +0.45 DPR to the archer and +0.55 to the sorlock (one die of bonus damage on 1/20 attack rolls, times two attacks).

So, factoring in crits, your number for the sorlock is correct, but you still haven't explained where the archer is getting the other 2.9 DPR from.

Sorry it took so long to get back to this, but I haven't been able to get to my PC and post the last few days -- phone only. And, you're right, I had fat fingered an entry for damage, apparently, as when I put it in again I get your numbers -- I was 2.9 high. Good catch.
 

pemerton

Legend
Some posters seem to be arguing that a sorcerer is not comparable at DPR than a fighter because it is better off spending spell resources doing other more interesting stuff. I don't follow that argument. If a sorcerer can match, or come close to matching, a featless fighter in DPR, and is better off doing other more interesting stuff leaving the DPR to the fighter, that seems to show that a sorcerer is just better.

I understand the argument that a sorcerer (or archer) needs a melee fighter for defence, which gives the fighter a distinctive support role. But I don't understand this other argument.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Define perfectly balanced.
Interestingly, it's those who decry any attempt to improve balance who seem more inclined to bring up 'perfect balance.'

"Perfect balance is impossible!" (so stop trying to improve balance)

"Perfect balance would be boring!" (So don't worry if you wreck what balance you have, it'll be more fun!)

"Of course, we admit that the game isn't perfectly balanced..." (...so we don't have to acknowledge how profoundly imbalanced it is.)

... there may be no limit to the constructs of illogic that can be used to defend imbalance. ;)

Part of the problem is that, in the context of our hobby there's imbalance that's intuitive & easy to spot - strict superiority (a choice is better than all alternatives, in all ways) - but, as a definition, it's too absolute to be of use. All it takes is one improbably situational advantage to put a plus in the inferior column or one trivial limitation for a minus in the other and it's not strict, anymore, it can be 'balanced' if those tiny differences are hammered hard & often enough.

We need a better definition. The best I've heard, for balance in the context of RPGs*, is that balance is the maximizing of player choices, while keeping those choices both meaningful & viable.


Perfect balance would thus be infinite choices, none of which are anywhere near being traps or must-haves, but each of which is meaningfully different and can lead, with capable play, to desirable outcomes, or, with mistakes & bad luck, undesirable ones. The universe of outcomes, in such a game, might also need to be infinite.

So, yeah, impossible to achieve. But that also just means that improvement is always possible.








* though, of course it wasn't originated in our tiny industry.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
. If a sorcerer can match, or come close to matching, a featless fighter in DPR, and is better off doing other more interesting stuff leaving the DPR to the fighter, that seems to show that a sorcerer is just better.
Sure, the Sorcerer, the most lack-lustre of the 5e full casters, flirts with strict superiority to the fighter, the premier ('best' at fighting, with weapons) 5e non-caster. Not exactly a shocker, and not exactly strict (strict being a very easy bar to avoid), but still, a terrible defense of the sorcerers specific DPR build and fighters perennial lack if versatility.

I understand the argument that a sorcerer (or archer) needs a melee fighter for defence, which gives the fighter a distinctive support role.
It's essentially a (social) class style argument about (character) class. The fighter should know his place and offer himself as a target as he grinds out DPR in melee, so his betters may take the decisive actions that swing the battle. The Sorcerer should know his place and not go out 'slumming' in the DPR ghetto, it's just not seemly.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Interestingly, it's those who decry any attempt to improve balance who seem more inclined to bring up 'perfect balance.'

"Perfect balance is impossible!" (so stop trying to improve balance)

"Perfect balance would be boring!" (So don't worry if you wreck what balance you have, it'll be more fun!)

"Of course, we admit that the game isn't perfectly balanced..." (...so we don't have to acknowledge how profoundly imbalanced it is.)

... there may be no limit to the constructs of illogic that can be used to defend imbalance. ;)

Part of the problem is that, in the context of our hobby there's imbalance that's intuitive & easy to spot - strict superiority (a choice is better than all alternatives, in all ways) - but, as a definition, it's too absolute to be of use. All it takes is one improbably situational advantage to put a plus in the inferior column or one trivial limitation for a minus in the other and it's not strict, anymore, it can be 'balanced' if those tiny differences are hammered hard & often enough.

We need a better definition. The best I've heard, for balance in the context of RPGs*, is that balance is the maximizing of player choices, while keeping those choices both meaningful & viable.


Perfect balance would thus be infinite choices, none of which are anywhere near being traps or must-haves, but each of which is meaningfully different and can lead, with capable play, to desirable outcomes, or, with mistakes & bad luck, undesirable ones. The universe of outcomes, in such a game, might also need to be infinite.

So, yeah, impossible to achieve. But that also just means that improvement is always possible.








* though, of course it wasn't originated in our tiny industry.
Interesting...

Re perfect balance - thats why when i was asked if certain games were perfectly balanced i asked what the definition was before answering. Its not an absolute objectibe quality.

As gor your pet choice of definition, i give it a D+ because while it sounds good its slightly deceptive - as its "about" balance in the sense of weighing off flexibility vs restrictive almost like crunch vs light but its use in a thread like this more looks at balance in terms of impact and output..

My arguments for or against most discusdions of balance, the points raised, is that they tend to leave out way to much needed info and draw way to many unfounded conclusions - the vast najority of time due to faith in myopic tunnel vision analysis.

The more "the analysis" puts focus on single element single outcome single situation type analysis the less relevance it has to the broader outcomes in play.

I guarantee you, my pcs did more dpr and more overall damage in Tuesday night's continuation of the semi-final fight that nade up the bulk of their session... And i am equally sure they did not come out of it thinking they won - given one of theirs us now captive and in the process of being "fed" to the "children."
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Interesting...

Re perfect balance - thats why when i was asked if certain games were perfectly balanced i asked what the definition was before answering. Its not an absolute objectibe quality.
Apparently, its an objectionable quality. ;)

Seriously, though, balance is a quality that games have, and, while it may be difficult to analyze in more complex games (its closely related to acquiring system mastery, that way), it is not entirely opaque.

Balance is the maximizing of player choices, while keeping those choices both meaningful & viable.
it sounds good its slightly deceptive - as its "about" balance in the sense of weighing off flexibility vs restrictive almost like crunch vs light but its use in a thread like this more looks at balance in terms of impact and output..
Impact & output factor into viability, it's part if the story.
Proving balance is hard, but detecting imbalance, less so. If a choice is non-viable, it's not contributing to balance, for instance, whether it's meaningful or not is moot.

And, no it's not about weighing flexible vs restrictive, indirectly maybe, avoiding the restrictive and keeping flexibility 'real.'

The more "the analysis" puts focus on single element single outcome single situation type analysis the less relevance it has to the broader outcomes in play.
Analysis can legitimately involve breaking down complex systems into less complex subsystems, dimensions, or elements.
 
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5ekyu

Hero
Apparently, its an objectionable quality. ;)

Seriously, though, balance is a quality that games have, and, while it may be difficult to analyze in more complex games (its closely related to acquiring system mastery, that way), it is not entirely opaque.

Balance is the maximizing of player choices, while keeping those choices both meaningful & viable. Impact & output factor into viability, it's part if the story.
Proving balance is hard, but detecting imbalance, less so. If a choice is non-viable, it's not contributing to balance, for instance, whether it's meaningful or not is moot.

And, no it's not about weighing flexible vs restrictive, indirectly maybe, avoiding the restrictive and keeping flexibility 'real.'

Analysis can legitimately involve breaking down complex systems into less complex subsystems, dimensions, or elements.
A couple points... In reverse order...
Some analysis can serve an overall analysis by micro zooming on on individual elements but it can also harm the large analysis if it paint a cockeyed picture.

An egregious example would be focusing on damage but ignoring hit chance.

Thats why larger system tests in actual play conditions are better.

About not being about weighing flex vs restrictive... You listed maximizing the choices you have etc options which seems to be about flexibility but added while blah blah is met seems restrictive.

As for "not viable" i feel that is as useful for the minmaxer position as perfect balance is for the other side and used for the same purpose.

What is viable?

If your top best output choice as a martial is 50. Then you have two 43s Then a half dozen at 35 then plenty in the 20-30 where is the not viable line drawn?

For some, that gap between 50 and 43 is "not viable" from the highest dpr blah blah crowd. (I know 53 is higher, just making up ratios. For others, its likely between the 43 bunch and 35 etc.

As in **outside of minmaxing** viable does not mean "best or close to it" but means enough to get the job done and i suggest that in 5e most any even,moderately straightforward build that is not crippled by contrary choices is "viable".

I do agree that imbalance or the appearance of imbalance is easier to spot and to imagine. Its gets moreso.

But, for RPGs the reason i am not willing to see high degree of "provable numerical balance" used as a constraint on design is that you cannot really see balance without locking in and cutting out the heart of the RPG.

In a video game, where the designer controls the challenges, they have locked in "need" to plug their "balance capabilities" into.

In a TTRPG each and every campaign is very different, each party is different and so the things on the need side are not static.

Question... How important is the cleric's dpr in a party of four with one cleric and no other source of healing?

How important is it in a party of four with three?

To me, the former is a situation ehere its likely many of the slots and actiins get spent on healing in tough fights.
In the latter, there is tons of healing potential so a lot more slots and actions will go to damage.

Thats just one of many aspects where we look for **balanceability** instead of equality.

As i once described it most things need to have three situations that can be seen and will be seen in pkay without breaking setting.

1 case where its top end - best or close

2 case where its average aka - viable

3 case where it is sub par enough to make it very tough - something else carries the weight.

Ideally these can be different situations that can occur in the same encounter frequently.

The key is that as long as those breaks are big enough to impact outcomes - not just one excel sum - then you have balanceable.

That means you dont need things so shackled to the math as some in the "balance by cpunting jelly beans" want and also requires less sacrifice.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
A couple points... In reverse order...
Some analysis can serve an overall analysis by micro zooming on on individual elements but it can also harm the large analysis if it paint a cockeyed picture.
Doesn't eliminate analysis as a useful tool. ...

An egregious example would be focusing on damage but ignoring hit chance.

Thats why larger system tests in actual play conditions are better.
That'd be testing playtesting, obviously, which is also helpful. Testing will find a problem, analysis will isolate the root cause, and point to possible solutions.

About not being about weighing flex vs restrictive... You listed maximizing the choices you have etc options which seems to be about flexibility but added while blah blah is met seems restrictive.
What we have, here, is a failure to communucate...

So, games present players with choices. The more choices at each choice point and the more choice points, the greater the potential depth of play.

But just adding choices doesn't always help. The classic example is the token in monopoly, you may like being the shoe, but it makes no difference in play. That's not 'meaningful' - RPGs add nuance to 'meaningful,' though (that you 'want to play a shoe' might carry some weight).
Another is the worthless choice - there's a variation of rock-paper-scissors that adds 'well' rock & scissors fall in the well, paper covers it - it obviates rock, so once both players realize that, the variation is back to three viable choices.

What is viable?
At absolute minimum, a viable choice must not have an alternative that is better than it in all ways. Again, RPGs add a lot of nuance to that.

If your top best output choice as a martial is 50. Then you have two 43s Then a half dozen at 35 then plenty in the 20-30 where is the not viable line drawn?
Depends on how much heavy lifting that DPR has to do, in context (of the system), and what, if anything the other alternatives have going for them.

For instance in the assumed 6-8 encounter day with 5rnd encounters, 1500-2000 vs 1290-1670 vs 1050-1400 vs 600-1200. If for the sake of illustration, a profoundly simplified Mike Mearls style balancing of the games hypothetical full caster's slots, with cantrips filling in additional rounds, were equivalent to 1500-1650, then the 50 dpr martial balances at 6 encounters & is OP at 8, while the 43 dpr is below par at 6, but balanced at 8.
But, on a off-label 4 round day, the martials throw down 1000, 835, 700, & 400-600, while the caster, down 10 rounds of very hypothetical 15 dpr cantrips, is at 1350.

So it's not just "is it balanced?" In an RPG it's also balanced for what sort of campaign?

And, again, theres nuance. If you really like the style of a weapon that takes you down from 50 to 47.5 or 43 to 41.5, why not go for it? (Effing half-point on average differences.)

Of course, that's a D&Dish example, other games are less sensitive to day length.

As in **outside of minmaxing** viable does not mean "best or close to it"
Even on the OP board it doesn't mean that - optimization is a specialized exercise, it needs parameters. Usually optimized for a specific thing.

In an absolute sense, 'not strictly inferior,' should be viable, keeping in mind that relatively minor and highly situational qualities can save you from strict inferiority.

In an RPG, 'not consistently overshadowed in the scope of play' might be closer. Though, you'll note, thats a higher bar.

Balance is more important in an RPG, where play is ideally cooperative, and 'meaningful' can be independent of mechanics, than in the narrower scope of a board/video and/or competitive game.

and i suggest that in 5e most any even,moderately straightforward build that is not crippled by contrary choices is "viable".
Depends on day length... ;) And pillar emphasis...

And that gets into another aspect - balance can be robust, or fragile...

In a TTRPG each and every campaign is very different, each party is different and so the things on the need side are not static.
Exactly. D&D traditionally copes with that by balancing to particular play expectations - a dungeon crawl with other adventurers waiting in the wings to jump your claim, new monsters moving in every day, old ones leaving with their hoards, &c; or 6-8 encounter/2-3 short rest days - it hasn't always been clear about those expectations or successful, of course.

One ed's lack of success at balancing classes led to sorting classes into Tiers by the power that mattered most in the highly variable context of an RPG: Versatility. Its still a useful tool to think about in 5e. Fighters lack versatility, but are solid tanks, Tier 4. Sorcerers have a potent spell list and cast spontaneously, but limited spells known that are hard to change, Tier 2. So, of course there's a corner case where the sorcerer can grind damage like the fighter, while in other scenarios going all in on some other spell.

Thats just one of many aspects where we look for **balanceability** instead of equality.
Its important to remember that balanced doesn't mean identical. If all weapons do d6 (and no other qualities) theres no meaningful choice of weapon, if the wizard, sorcerer, and Psion all have the same slots, and identical spell lists, and trivial 'ribbon' class features, theres only one caster. Add or change something, give weapons different die types, proficiency, grits, damage types; give casters completely different spell lists, etc, and you avoid that, and re-eintroduce some balance, if you do it well.
 
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Tanin Wulf

First Post
Optimization is analogous to solving a sub-set of the game, most often the character-generation metagame. There's a finite set of choices in building a character. Pretty large, in some eds, but finite.

The reason why it's not a solved game at that point is because D&D has something the other games we're drawing comparisons to does not: the DM is changing the scenario. (Note this is not an appeal to Rule 0, it's an explanation of why it's not a solved game.)

Your hyper optimized setup can be stopped, dead in its tracks, by being the wrong solution to any number of problems that are all perfectly valid expressions of the rules and the game and don't require houserules... merely the proper setup and execution from the DM. That's why it can't be a solved game and why a sub-optimal solution doesn't remove choices.

(Noe that I'm not a fan of "traps" and would rather they not exist; I'm simply pointing out that this logic doesn't follow.)
 

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