D&D 4E Martial Techniques

AbdulAlhazred · Jul 1, 2018

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how the whole series of techniques, as you have formulated it here, fits into overall character construction in 4e. A lot of these are essentially feats or powers in normal 4e parlance, just recast into the mechanical framework of practices/rituals.

So, how would you envisage the way this would work in actual play? I mean, wouldn't it become pretty much REQUIRED to achieve the most useful of these practices? Since their numbers and availability are effectively unrestricted (you could use old-fashioned techniques of making it impossible to find certain ones, but that seems rather against 4e conceptually) are they not simply necessary things that players will have to add to each character?

I mean, that's the flaw with feats already, and the motivation that 5e had for making them an option you pay for with ABIs. 4e feats simply became 'feat tax' that had to be paid. To be a fighter you had to have weapon expertise, weapon talent, the feat that ups your Combat Superiority attack, some weapon proficiency feats to get the best superior weapon in your chosen weapon type path, etc. With these martial techniques you're going to want to have at least the 3 or 4 best ones, ALWAYS. Maybe that's OK, but it isn't serving any kind of goal of increasing character diversity is it?

Garthanos · Jul 1, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how the whole series of techniques, as you have formulated it here, fits into overall character construction in 4e. A lot of these are essentially feats or powers in normal 4e parlance, just recast into the mechanical framework of practices/rituals.

They are almost all of them exactly magic item mechanics good sir and have costs and availability just like them. Some with more than one preparation count as more than one item combined. Something I do with magic items.

There will likely be an iron armbands of power to had in a different flavor... but the "must haves" are no more here than on the magic item lists.

I moved these to their own thread because they were based around items not rituals and so weren't much like the practices. (with only a preparation time of a minor action or two - the defense / armor types being the exception).

It does turn out a few items interact with skills in ways we do have practices doing very similar to the alternate skill use and that also makes things ambiguous however most practices take longer to perform than items do to equip and use.

For the disarming flourish technique there is an item which allows one to use strength to intimidate with all the time. (you mentioned that you were considering that effect in practices instead of swapping skills) . I think a full swap out athletics and thievery for a targeted use instead of just attributes for every use, made more sense. (guess I made it more practice like with that and then thinking we needed an assured effect even on a failure is also).

I am finding the need to differentiate things more and more annoying. I mean preparing a practice so it can be used quickly makes it into a dispensable magic item. There goes the barriers again.

Garthanos · Jul 1, 2018

Garthanos said:
Disarming Flourish

You may use your athletics or thieving for the in combat usage of intimidation. Using this technique you put on display of prowess so incredible you may even disarm your enemy and drive them into defeat

level 6, 1800 karma

Note in a world with many magic items that cling to hand or leap back to hand perhaps this ability is seen as quaint and old fashioned among the elites. (such items making one immune to the secondary effects mentioned)

The secondary effect would mean this takes a preparation of 2 worth another and rack the total up to a level 9 acuisition... ie fast approaching paragon.

Its easy to leave that aside and consider this a more approachable level 6 with no guarantee of even the temporary disarm effect.

Garthanos · Jul 1, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
So, how would you envisage the way this would work in actual play? I mean, wouldn't it become pretty much REQUIRED to achieve the most useful of these practices? Since their numbers and availability are effectively unrestricted

No more unrestricted than magic items are ...

AbdulAlhazred said:
I mean, that's the flaw with feats already, and the motivation that 5e had for making them an option you pay for with ABIs.

That looked like an attempt to better enable simplistic functionality ie more slayers less cool fighters, instead of interesting things which make for more complicated play.

AbdulAlhazred · Jul 2, 2018

Garthanos said:
They are almost all of them exactly magic item mechanics good sir and have costs and availability just like them. Some with more than one preparation count as more than one item combined. Something I do with magic items.

There will likely be an iron armbands of power to had in a different flavor... but the "must haves" are no more here than on the magic item lists.

I moved these to their own thread because they were based around items not rituals and so weren't much like the practices. (with only a preparation time of a minor action or two - the defense / armor types being the exception).

It does turn out a few items interact with skills in ways we do have practices doing very similar to the alternate skill use and that also makes things ambiguous however most practices take longer to perform than items do to equip and use.

For the disarming flourish technique there is an item which allows one to use strength to intimidate with all the time. (you mentioned that you were considering that effect in practices instead of swapping skills) . I think a full swap out athletics and thievery for a targeted use instead of just attributes for every use, made more sense. (guess I made it more practice like with that and then thinking we needed an assured effect even on a failure is also).

I am finding the need to differentiate things more and more annoying. I mean preparing a practice so it can be used quickly makes it into a dispensable magic item. There goes the barriers again.

Right, I just cannot muster the enthusiasm anymore for 4e's plethora of different categories of power ups which are all basically exactly the same thing, except how you get them.

Garthanos · Jul 2, 2018

Something like Disarming Flourish in practice form would be like the following.
As a practice you would analyse the fighting style of the particular enemy or type of enemy you wanted to disarm and use insight, make a preparation that would allow you to pull it out and get both insight based disarm and get a form of auto success with the adversary being disarmed/proned diving/kneeling to pick it up even if the intimidation style check failed ... while it might be workable as a practice it isnt something I think would be a must have.

One significant difference between practices/rituals and items/techniques

The latter are far more expensive.

typical prices with some variation.
Level 6 item 1800 --- Level 6 practice or ritual 360

Garthanos · Jul 2, 2018

In the category of Ambiguity... Look at this Skill Power (admittedly it's one I made but inspired by another official one) its level 10 but of note since it does not require a bloodied target unlike the technique and is more versatile being able to move the enemy around. But if I included the auxiliary proning effect in the technique it would be very close. (In level too)

Are powers analogous to two items?

Garthanos · Jul 2, 2018

Garthanos said:
The secondary effect would mean this takes a preparation of 2 worth another and rack the total up to a level 9 acuisition... ie fast approaching paragon.

Its easy to leave that aside and consider this a more approachable level 6 with no guarantee of even the temporary disarm effect.

Perfected Disarm
If your Intimidate Encounter Power Fails to fully defeat your adversary, your astounding technique remains far from pointless. If your enemy is armed with a weapon or implement it is knocked to their feat - they spend an opportunity action to drop prone rearming themselves (but they are now prone) similarly an unarmored enemy is bowled over by your display and unable to respond to opportunities.

Mechanics: Your enemy loses an opportunity action and is prone.

Karma 4200 1 focus and 1 preparation

AbdulAlhazred · Jul 2, 2018

Garthanos said:
Perfected Disarm
If your Intimidate Encounter Power Fails to fully defeat your adversary, your astounding technique remains far from pointless. If your enemy is armed with a weapon or implement it is knocked to their feat - they spend an opportunity action to drop prone rearming themselves (but they are now prone) similarly an unarmored enemy is bowled over by your display and unable to respond to opportunities.

Mechanics: Your enemy loses an opportunity action and is prone.

Karma 4200 1 focus and 1 preparation

Yeah, it works.