Just make it up

maddman75 said:

In the discussion on 'official' sources, the idea was brought up that many DMs don't simply make it up. Is this accurate? Does everything in your game need to have a rule source?

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Depends what you mean. I like to have everything I create work within the rules, yes. Like the warriors you created as your example, they could probably be worked up just fine within the rules, I think that's why they seemed OK to you.

I don't bother to check every detail of things I create (unless I have time to do so). But by the same token, I try to make sure NPCs and monsters always stay within the same rules restrictions that the PCs have. I won't go outside the rules just to create a "wow" factor unless it's something the PCs could never interact directly with, like a legend or story within the campaign.

-Dave

I am a strict by the rules DM and player. I want every thing that happens to fit the rules as laid down. Now those rules can be core, 3rd party or house rules as long as they are clear and followed by both players and DMs. For monsters, spell, items, ect. They should fit the rules but can well be made up by the DM on the fly.

My main reasoning is this: The rules of the game are to the characters and NPC as the laws of physics are to us. How can we as players know what the charactes, their allies and their foes can do if the laws are bent or broken at whim by the DM.

Garmorn said:

I am a strict by the rules DM and player. I want every thing that happens to fit the rules as laid down. Now those rules can be core, 3rd party or house rules as long as they are clear and followed by both players and DMs. For monsters, spell, items, ect. They should fit the rules but can well be made up by the DM on the fly.

My main reasoning is this: The rules of the game are to the characters and NPC as the laws of physics are to us. How can we as players know what the charactes, their allies and their foes can do if the laws are bent or broken at whim by the DM.

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Of course, the corallary to that is, I don't believe the players should always know what their allies and their foes can do. NPCs and monsters should be able to surprise even those players who have read the rulebooks cover to cover.

To put it in more real-world terms, I have no understanding of physics, beyond the very basics. That doesn't mean I don't believe nuclear fission works, or that planes can't fly. I don't know how they do. (Well, in details; I know the basic principles, of course.) I just accept that it happens via ways I don't understand.

I consider the rules of the game the same thing. They are the way the world works, for the most part, but exceptions can and do exist, and even the wisest PCs are going to be ignorant of a few details and loopholes here and there. I believe that the vast majority of a game should be conducted within the rules, but if the DM feels the need to make something up that violates those rules--and if he's not doing so purely as a means to screw the characters, of course--I say, more power to him.

And let's be honest--a lot of experienced DMs can make up house rules, even on the fly, that are better than some of the published material.

Depending on the game, I do make up things on the fly but as much as possible, I'd rather they follow the rules. Why? Because I find that the ruleset tends to be solid ground in determining what is fair. I've a lot of trust in the playtesting that is done in "official products" though that trust has been betrayed many times in the past (psiHB *cough cough*).

Of course, what is fair will not always be what is fun, but to my experience, some players (including myself) dislike it when GMs go too much over the top and ignore all the rules on a frequent basis.

I do improvise in the occasion that I feel inspired enough to do so. If I make the PCs fight 6 sorcerers, then I know well enough to estimate a HP average and what spells they might have. With made up fighters, I think that my knowledge of the ruleset gives me a good idea of what is a fair amount of HP and attack value.

For the most part though, I tend to improvise in those tense, RP moments, like the time when my player's (ex)paladin killed his own pregnant wife to "save her".

Mmmm... *enjoys the tragedy of the memory*

anyway, gone are the days of "You're walking down the road. Lalalala. Suddenly, out of the woods comes a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Roll for Initiative!" Its (mostly) balanced encounters for me, that's for certain.

Garmorn said:

My main reasoning is this: The rules of the game are to the characters and NPC as the laws of physics are to us. How can we as players know what the charactes, their allies and their foes can do if the laws are bent or broken at whim by the DM.

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As Mouseferatu says, we as players are not supposed to know in detail what everyone is able to do. Just as we, as real peole, don't know all the things that are possible under the laws of physics.

Nobody, in the real world or in the fictional one, is privy to the details of all the rules of the universe in which they operate. So, they cannot know in detail all the possibilities. That leaves a lot of room for whim, and for things to operate differently than you'd expect.

I do make stuff up. However, I am a stickler for consistency, too. When I make something up, I generally use the existing material as a template.

For example, let's say I make up an "green enchanter" that has a beguiling gaze but don't have a writeup for such a PrC. I might assume that this character has a prestige class, assume the class has a 5th level entry requirement and, like many PrC abilities, the special abilities have a DC or 10+(.5 or 1)x class level + ability modifier and allows full (or near full spell advancement.)

I generally prefer to have structure even for these "magics that man is not meant to know" types of things. This is why I think Relics & Rituals is such an essential companion to my core rules. The true ritual rules explain all these dastardly rituals and facilitates them without the same sort of handwaving that we are used to. Now again, I do make these things up on the fly, so if I create a ritual that does something the players have to stop, I simply assume it is a true ritual spell and assign some requirements to it.

In short, I use the structure of the rules as an assistance in making new stuff up instead of a straightjacket.

On the PC vs. NPC availability issue, there are and always will be things the PCs will not have access too. I run a "no evils" campaign, but at the same time will gleefully use things like classes from the BoVD. Sure, a PC may tread that road, but if they do, it's usually a one way path for them into NPCdom, because I am generally not interested in running PCs of that sort. That said, I am generally of the attitude that one level of an "evil NPC/monster" only class should be on par with a normal class... no extra power bennies for being an NPC. If you want an NPC to be more powerful than the PCs, make him a higher level!

Edit: Oh, and I feel no responsibility to let my players know or supervise what goes into the game, though. That just spoils the surprise.

I've only been DMing for a few months, but I've read several DM tips and strategies over several years of posting on multiple D&D boards. I tend to go by the rules, but I'm not above extending a combat slightly to challenge an under-rated counter a bit, nor adjusting AC and HP downward somewhat to prevent PC death.

Note that I usually tend to do that when I make poor judgement calls on a challenge, rather than the PCs. If the PCs do something particularly clever or stupid, I let the dice fall where they may.

And sometimes I simply don't have the time to stat out something completely new, so I pull stats out of the air, as was previously mentioned. In one game, the PCs fought something that was essentially a manifestation of a creature that they would fight later. I didn't want to get stats for this thing, as it would only last a combat or two, and I'm a busy person with college and all. Results, an AC, some BAB and dmg, along with good flavor text, and the PCs have been puzzling about what exactly it was for a long time.

Psion said:

...I feel no responsibility to let my players know or supervise what goes into the game, though. That just spoils the surprise.

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Agreed. I give my players the BPAA Background and expect them to understand that it but the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Interesting thread....and yeppers, I'm the one that popped off in the other thread about some "newer" DMs having either a hard time making stuff up or they just expect it to be done for them.

This comes from watching posts on messageboards (here, WotC's boards esp, and several others), talking to peeps at conventions, etc.

It just seems to me that as of late, DMs have a hard time coming up with stuff not covered by the rules or coming up with stuff on the fly or changing existing stuff to fit their needs. Doesnt make them a bad DM overall or anything, but whenever something like that comes up, it makes me think back to the day (1e/OD&D). If it wasnt in the rules, we just winged it. If it didnt fit our campaign or if we didnt like it, we changed it.

For example, I've seen posts in the past where guys wouldnt allow or felt, as DM, that they couldnt do something in their game because it wasnt covered in the rules. Like, when 3e first came out, and there were no rules in the books for underwater combat and stuff.

"Well, we can't have any underwater games at all, and my whole campaign in 2e was based there. WotC ruined my game with 3e."

Ok, a bit extreme perhaps, but I have talked to peeps that felt like that and I have read posts like that (maybe not that extreme mind you, but you get my point). My response..."No, your game is fine. Make the rules up for yourself."

Another example, people yelled and screamed about how worthless the new Deities & Demigods book was when it came out, because they didnt use the stuff from the ELH. Whether they shouldve or shouldnt have used ELH stuff in DDG is another story, but what's to keep a DM from using the ELH himself to alter the gods to his liking?

And yet another example.... When Tome 1 first came out, a lot of peeps sent me email asking why we didnt get permission from WotC to use the BoVD feats and stuff like that in there for the demons and devils. Well, it actually didnt really cross my mind at the time and Tome was at the printer, IIRC, when the BoVD came out. Either that or something similar. Dont remember honestly, but using the BoVD, or getting permission to see it, etc. just didnt cross my mind.

Some peeps actually said in email to me that the demons and devils in Tome 1 couldn't be used because we didnt use the BoVD stuff (nevermind that its not OGC and would require a separate license).

Honestly now, if you want to use BoVD stuff with the Tome demons and devils, how hard is it to interchange a feat here and there?

Last one promise....I've seen a couple of posts here and there about how this monster or that adventure or whatever is outta balance, broken, useless, etc. Perhaps it's true, but that doesnt mean that you can't change it to suit your needs.

(This might be the longest post I've done on ENWorld in a long time.... )

maddman75 said:

Do other DMs not do it this way? I can't imagine running a game this way, having to come up with an exact source for the monsters, spells, etc. Sometimes when I get suprised I pull entire stat blocks out of the air. My 4th level party takes a different turn and I need some big tough warriors to stop them? Well, let's give them a 18 AC, fifty hit points, and +8 to hit. I'm sure that's about right. I don't use CRs at all, so that's no issue.

The best way this idea was expressed was in Pkitty's story hour, when someone asked how the bad guys created some big undead thingamabob. IIRC, his response was 'The White Kingdom has dark magics that Man Was Not Meant To Know. They probably used those.'

Thoughts?

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I agree maddman- I've made up tons of stuff on the fly in the past. Either because the rules didnt cover it, no source existed for it, or whatever. We use CR, but we dont adhere tightly to the CR rules....we play more of a 1e-style game where not everything is balanced. (You know, like at the end of the B4 The Lost City module, for levels 1-3, when they meet Zargon who has like 7 HD).

As for pulling stats outta thin air, yes, I've done that too. And yeah, Pkitty has it right, I have done stuff similar to that as well.