Everybody Cheats?

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs?

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Yes, Everybody​

Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion:
Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is extremely common--almost everyone cheats and this dishonesty is implicitly condoned in most situation. The large majority of interviewees admitted to cheating, and in the games I played, I cheated as well.
Fine makes it a point of clarify that cheating doesn't carry quite the same implications in role-playing as it does in other games:
Since FRP players are not competing against each other, but are cooperating, cheating does not have the same effect on the game balance. For example, a player who cheats in claiming that he has rolled a high number while his character is fighting a dragon or alien spaceship not only helps himself, but also his party, since any member of the party might be killed. Thus the players have little incentive to prevent this cheating.
The interesting thing about cheating is that if everyone cheats, parity is maintained among the group. But when cheating is rampant, any player who adheres slavishly to die-roll results has "bad luck" with the dice. Cheating takes place in a variety of ways involving dice (the variable component PCs can't control), such as saying the dice is cocked, illegible, someone bumped the table, it rolled off a book or dice tray, etc.

Why Cheat?​

One of the challenges with early D&D is that co-creator Gary Gygax's design used rarity to make things difficult. This form of design reasoned that the odds against certain die rolls justified making powerful character builds rare, and it all began with character creation.

Character creation was originally 3d6 for each attribute, full stop. With the advent of computers, players could automate this rolling process by rapidly randomizing thousands of characters until they got the combination of numbers they wanted. These numbers dictated the PC's class (paladins, for example, required a very strict set of high attributes). Psionics too, in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, required a specific set of attributes that made it possible to spontaneously manifest psionic powers. Later forms of character generation introduced character choice: 4d6 assigned to certain attributes, a point buy system, etc. But in the early incarnations of the game, it was in the player's interest, if she wanted to play a paladin or to play a psionic, to roll a lot -- or just cheat (using the dice pictured above).

Game masters have a phrase for cheating known as "fudging" a roll; the concept of fudging means the game master may ignore a roll for or against PCs if it doesn't fit the kind of game he's trying to create. PCs can be given extra chances to reroll, or the roll could be interpreted differently. This "fudging" happens in an ebb and flow as the GM determines the difficulty and if the die rolls support the narrative.

GM screens were used as a reference tool with relevant charts and to prevent players from seeing maps and notes. But they also helped make it easier for GMs to fudge rolls. A poll on RPG.net shows that over 90% of GMs fudged rolls behind the screen.

Cheating Is the Rule​

One of Fifth Edition's innovations was adopting a common form of cheating -- the reroll -- by creating advantage. PCs now have rules encouraging them to roll the dice twice, something they've been doing for decades with the right excuse.

When it comes to cheating, it seems like we've all been doing it. But given that we're all working together to have a good time, is it really cheating?
 
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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Yet fudging can also entail "entire table suffers." Fudging is not always positive for the players. And players are not always fudging their rolls for the sake of the player character. This even gets discussed in the quotes from the OP's book.

Also as an aside, I don't buy into this whole "good DM" vs. "bad DM" meta-narrative that seeks to excrete a set of XYZ behaviors, trends, and methods onto a fictional and nebulous class of DM for the sake of uplifting the class of DMs dubbed "good" who coincidentally happen to align with the practices of the speaker.

That's all well and good, just know that I only indulged myself within the cheating and fudging discussion for the sake of putting down my opinion on the matter if I were to have one.

I'm already on record as stating that DM's can't cheat due to Rule 0 and any cheating or fudging that DM's allow the players is under the same mandate. By the extension of logic that means that any fudging done by players that the DM doesn't know about, or doesn't allow is "cheating".

Personally, I just have a good social contract with my players before a game starts that if I were to paraphrase the page of text would boil down to "don't be a dink." Seems to work out just fine when everyone enjoys themselves and comes back next week.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Interesting question. I suspect that they are points along a continuum, based on frequency, severity and intent to gain advantage over another player(s) or the DM. There is therefore always going to be a grey area between, but where the extremes are quite clear.

For me, if doing it makes the game more fun and enjoyable, without fundementally changing the way it is being played, then it is fudging. That's why DMs cannot cheat, unless there is clear intent on the DM's part to make the player's lives unpleasent, and not in a fun way. :)

Cheating on the other hand is an attempt to gain advantage over another player or players, or to change the way the game plays i.e. in a game where succuss is based on skill + random element, cheating is an attempt to remove that random element.

Whereas I think that’s just sophistry and silly buggers semantics.

Try this. Change a die roll in any dice game other than an rpg and see what happens.
 

Hussar

Legend
The rule is what it is. How you interpret it has a lot to do with whether you're a half full or half empty kind of person.

If you're half-empty then it's an ego salve
If you're half-full it's the enabler of all the kit bashing done on the forums and in the hobby.

Which one any particular person is seems to have a lot to do with whether or not a pet peeve has been enabled. Either way, DMs can't cheat. They either have fun with their group or they drive them away. That's the flexibility of the rules set.

Be well
KB

It’s not cheating if it’s fun? Fun for who? And how do we measure that? Since fudging is generally secret, the players can’t judge.

Note, kit bashing is another kettle of fish. That’s above board and tacitly agreed upon by all participants.

If fudging isn’t cheating then why do dms keep it secret?
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
But, as I recall in this thread, you talk about booting players for cheating. So, you must have encountered it at least once in your gaming experience.

And, let's not forget, there is a very fine line between "fudging" and "cheating". It's a pretty rare DM who has never, ever, fudged anything in any game at any time.

They have encountered cheating, they just never made their perception check when it happened...
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Whereas I think that’s just sophistry and silly buggers semantics.

Try this. Change a die roll in any dice game other than an rpg and see what happens.
Well, if it's a co-operative dice game, chances are, the other players will be okay with it...
Also, some dice games like Roll-Player are all about changing die rolls. Naturally, there are rules that dictate exactly how and when you may change die rolls, but still.
 

It’s not cheating if it’s fun? Fun for who? And how do we measure that? Since fudging is generally secret, the players can’t judge.

Note, kit bashing is another kettle of fish. That’s above board and tacitly agreed upon by all participants.

If fudging isn’t cheating then why do dms keep it secret?

Simple - the DMs I play with do NOT keep it secret. If you don’t want it at your games, that’s fine. But if a group agrees amongst ourselves that it is acceptable we’re not suddenly having badwrongfun. Play the game how you like and let other groups play how they like.

Edit to add: In my games, DM fudging is also tacitly agreed upon by all participants. So why is it a different kettle of fish?
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yet fudging can also entail "entire table suffers." Fudging is not always positive for the players. And players are not always fudging their rolls for the sake of the player character. This even gets discussed in the quotes from the OP's book.

Fudging is always positive for the players, or at least intended to be so. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be fudging. It would be DM abuse of power. Players cannot fudge by the way. They have no authority to do so unless the DM gives it to them. They are cheating if they alter a die roll outside of some PC ability/feat/spell to do so.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Whereas I think that’s just sophistry and silly buggers semantics.

Try this. Change a die roll in any dice game other than an rpg and see what happens.

Really? That's your counter? You do realize that it amounts to this.

Man 1: Killing in self-defense is allowed if your life is being threatened.

You: Sophistry and semantics! Try just walking up to a random stranger and shooting them in the head and see what happens.

Yes Hussar, if you play a game where you are not allowed to change die rolls and you change a die roll, it's cheating. That has no bearing on D&D, though.
 

Fudging is always positive for the players, or at least intended to be so. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be fudging. It would be DM abuse of power.

But surely the DM can also fudge in a way that is negative to the players? What if I want a boss to be extra tough, so I tell a player they missed, when in fact they hit?

And how do you determine whether this type of fudging is positive or negative to the players?
 


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