Suspense in RPGs

Bawylie · Jun 21, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
Meh. You prettymuch do know the protagonist will /survive/ in some sense. You don't know if he'll extricate himself from predicament, or if he'll miraculously survive the fall, or get rescued, or fall presumably to his death, only to show up later with some improable story ("From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak I fought with the Balrog of Morgoth... Until at last I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountain side... ") that doesn't really adequately explained how he survived.
;P

In a cliffhanger, you just come back later ("same bat-time, same bat-channel!"), in a movie you can cut to a different scene, or show the character's efforts in agonizing detail. In an RPG, what are you going to do, get a /reeeeallly/ tall dice tower? Resolution mechanics are not overly time-consuming - heck, some RPGs go out of their way to make 'em fast.

I think that's what the point was, you put things in the way of the 'inevitable' resolution that, in turn, need to be dealt with, somehow, thus creating that suspense-filled 'pause' between the intent/need/danger and the resolution. And, yeah, it may add up to a 'cost' (or may seem like pointless temporizing).

I don’t think you KNOW they survive. I think you guess. And I think if the narrative is sufficiently suspenseful, you feel an amount of anxiety about the outcome. Otherwise you’re engaging the meta-narrative of a story intellectually instead of engaging what’s actually happening in this story. A sufficient cliffhanger SHOULD trigger your suspension of disbelief. If it can’t, and there’s no real tension, then it’s a squib. You might have seen more than your fair share of squibs. And ok, fair enough.

But in an RPG what are you gonna do? I agree that’s the real question here. However, I’m not convinced a market system is anywhere near the answer.

Tony Vargas · Jun 21, 2018

Bawylie said:
I don’t think you KNOW they survive. I think you guess.

Depending on the genre and the mode of storytelling, you can absolutely know.

For instance, if the first scene of the war movie is the old veteran telling a group of people about his experiences before they screen ripples & fades to his younger self, you /know/ he didn't die. He might very well have fallen off some cliffs and gotten shot, burned, blown up or whatever, but he didn't die.

But in an RPG what are you gonna do? I agree that’s the real question here. However, I’m not convinced a market system is anywhere near the answer.

Neither am I. It looks like a 'price' could well be extracted in the process and contribute to the suspense, but not that it's the main point. And resource management in a pretty conventional aspect of RPGs.

But I don't find the idea that it's uncertainty of the ultimate outcome that's the main point, too compelling, either.

Bawylie · Jun 21, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
Depending on the genre and the mode of storytelling, you can absolutely know.

For instance, if the first scene of the war movie is the old veteran telling a group of people about his experiences before they screen ripples & fades to his younger self, you /know/ he didn't die. He might very well have fallen off some cliffs and gotten shot, burned, blown up or whatever, but he didn't die.

Neither am I. It looks like a 'price' could well be extracted in the process and contribute to the suspense, but not that it's the main point. And resource management in a pretty conventional aspect of RPGs.

But I don't find the idea that it's uncertainty of the ultimate outcome that's the main point, too compelling, either.

That’s literally what suspense is though. And if your goal is “more suspense in your games” I feel like you’d probably want to understand what it is before you try to put more in.

Bedrockgames · Jun 21, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
Depending on the genre and the mode of storytelling, you can absolutely know.

For instance, if the first scene of the war movie is the old veteran telling a group of people about his experiences before they screen ripples & fades to his younger self, you /know/ he didn't die. He might very well have fallen off some cliffs and gotten shot, burned, blown up or whatever, but he didn't die.
.

I think this is less true than it used to be (in part because some of the suspense got lost as people became more familiar with these patterns). Even if the character is narrating, it doesn't mean he survives now. Just look at a film like Casino. Clearly not a war movie, but still one where that narrator survives lulls you into a false sense of security. I find when I watch movies these days, I am a lot less sure whether a character will survive. More importantly, I tend to find that more entertaining. I specifically seek out films where I think who survives will be less predictable.

Not saying you can't have suspense in movies or books where you know the lead character survives. I do think it takes a lot more work though.

Tony Vargas · Jun 21, 2018

Bedrockgames said:
Not saying you can't have suspense in movies or books where you know the lead character survives. I do think it takes a lot more work though.

That's really the point: you absolutely can have suspense, even if you know the ultimate outcome. Heck, re-watching a Hitchcock movie can still be suspenseful.

In an RPG, the player often knows more about the probabilities and mechanisms of what's going on, not only than their character, but than a hypothetical reader/viewer being told their story, which can get pretty close to 'knowing the outcome,' so it's harder to do suspsense.

It obvious/intuitive answer is, "well, make it easier, then!" Take more resolution behind the screen, keep modifiers and the like secret, roll player dice as well as monster dice back there. Just put the player in the deep, scary, dark, and leave him there.

That may not always be a good answer. It could rob the player of some of the experience, some of the 'agency,' and even lead to frustration rather than suspense.

So, since it /is/ possible to have suspense even without much uncertainty about ultimate outcome, in, say, the movies, how can we do it in RPGs? Building a 'pause' before the final resolution by introducing more complications/challenges that add up to management-resource-metagame 'costs' might be one way to do it.

Lanefan · Jun 21, 2018

pemerton said:
I'm not sure how this generates suspense - especially if it is predictable!

But it's not. Nothing is, when left to the whims of dice.

I can see that it might generate tension - "Is my PC going to die as a result of this?" - but that in and of itself, without more, doesn't seem to generate suspense (eg if the player can just bring in a new PC of roughly the same functionality, then what cost has been paid?).

Tension and suspense are largely synonymous here; and if the table rules say new characters come in at lower level than the party average, say, then right there's a good reason not to die....or to make sure you've laid in for revival insurance.

Lanefan · Jun 21, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
For instance, if the first scene of the war movie is the old veteran telling a group of people about his experiences before they screen ripples & fades to his younger self, you /know/ he didn't die. He might very well have fallen off some cliffs and gotten shot, burned, blown up or whatever, but he didn't die.

As most fantasy RPGs have revival mechanics, this example doesn't quite cross over perfectly: the veteran might have died several times, in fact, and been revived each time.

Tony Vargas · Jun 21, 2018

Lanefan said:
As most fantasy RPGs have revival mechanics, this example doesn't quite cross over perfectly: the veteran might have died several times, in fact, and been revived each time.

Well, sure, if it were a hypothetical old-school-D&D movie instead of an old war movie, the Veteran might have died and been resurected, but it'd seem unlikely, as he's only a 1st-level Fighter.

...oh, he could have been level drained.

Bawylie · Jun 21, 2018

Bedrockgames said:
I think this is less true than it used to be (in part because some of the suspense got lost as people became more familiar with these patterns). Even if the character is narrating, it doesn't mean he survives now. Just look at a film like Casino. Clearly not a war movie, but still one where that narrator survives lulls you into a false sense of security. I find when I watch movies these days, I am a lot less sure whether a character will survive. More importantly, I tend to find that more entertaining. I specifically seek out films where I think who survives will be less predictable.

Not saying you can't have suspense in movies or books where you know the lead character survives. I do think it takes a lot more work though.

Yeah. Well the cliffhanger is just the most immediately easily understandable example of suspense.

That’s not to say “life or death” is the only way to get suspense. Another example is the high stakes card game type of scene. Those too are often suspenseful.

Really I think the key to it is investment in the outcome and some delay between the action and the outcome.

Bedrockgames · Jun 21, 2018

Bawylie said:
Yeah. Well the cliffhanger is just the most immediately easily understandable example of suspense.

That’s not to say “life or death” is the only way to get suspense. Another example is the high stakes card game type of scene. Those too are often suspenseful.

Really I think the key to it is investment in the outcome and some delay between the action and the outcome.

True. But in all these cases I think stakes and not knowing the outcomes matters a great deal. A roll of dice at a gambling table or card game, are suspenseful if the players stand to lose a lot. But that suspense hinges on them actually being able to lose whatever is at stake. Again, this is where the 'game' side of RPGs, and the inherent lack of predictability in RPGs can be a strength.

Suspense in RPGs

Bawylie

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