The roots of 4e exposed?

Jester David · Jun 28, 2018

It's a great series of very well researched articles that has some good interview elements with designers.

Ancalagon said:
To me the real striking thing was that this was all designed to drive people to pay for a subscription fee - revenue generation was baked into the design.

They were kinda over a barrel at that point. They needed D&D to be generating more money per year than it had ever generated before or be shelved. And one way to do that was seen as subscriptions, that would provide a steady and sustained income. And likely microtransactions for things like miniatures and online elements.

While, I was critical of the need of virtual tabletops at the time, the success and usefulness of Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds have proved me very, very wrong.

Aldarc · Jun 28, 2018

Ted Serious said:
Pathfinder 2 is still taking shape. It seems truer to the direction D&D was going than 4e was. It would have been less controversial and done better. 5e would not have been needed.

I would be hestitant to use this language. You can't be truer than what happened, and 4e did evolve out of the late 3e materials. But right now we are seeing multitude of reactions to the Pathfinder 2 preview materials akin to "that looks like 4e," and "that looks like 5e," with other fans noting "that was already in late PF1 so this still looks like PF." So it does seem that 3.X d20 system remains the backbone for Pathfinder, 4e, and 5e.

Charlaquin · Jun 28, 2018

Maybe it’s just because I pay a lot of attention to the development of games I like, but I feel like none of that was new information. I guess it was nice to see it all presented in such a neat and tidy series of articles. Very clear and concise summary of what we already knew about the behind-the-scenes of 4e.

I do still wish I could see what might have developed out of Essentials had 4e not already poisoned the well of entrenched fans.

Ancalagon · Jun 28, 2018

I really thought that the point about late 3.5 was interesting. It made me realize that I really don't know much about the 3.5 "late game" and I find this a bit disconcerting.

Tony Vargas · Jun 28, 2018

Hm... one thing that was left out: He did mention that in 2005-7, Hasbro had that big-income 'core brand' policy, that forced D&D to go the DDI/VTT subscription-income route in a desperate bid to bring in more money than the entire RPG industry had ever done before ($ 50 million accordning to Dancey - hint, the industry has doubled in size the last few years, and is up to 35m, yeah, as great as 5e is doing, had 4e done as well, it'd've still failed). He did not mention that between the demise of 4e/Essentials and the launch of 5e, that policy went away. So what really saved D&D was the same cynical big corporation objective shuffling that had nearly killed it twice before.

Heck, if Hasbro gets a new set of execs with a new set of objectives and management fad KPI's, D&D could be on the chopping block again.

Charlaquin · Jun 28, 2018

Ancalagon said:
I really thought that the point about late 3.5 was interesting. It made me realize that I really don't know much about the 3.5 "late game" and I find this a bit disconcerting.

It’s a reoccurring pattern with D&D. In the later publications of pretty much every edition, you can see the designers experimenting with ideas that would eventually form the basis of the following edition. And it’s not just D&D. Lots of RPGs do it. Look at Pathfinder Unchained and how some of its innovations were incorporated into Starfinder and now PF2. Or The RPG Formally Known As New World of Darkness and how most of the optional rules hacks from Danae Macabre became core to 2e. Usually when a game starts really experimenting and pushing the boundaries of its system, it’s a sure sign that the designers are getting bored with the current ruleset and a new edition is likely not far off.

Ancalagon · Jun 28, 2018

Star wars Saga contained a lot of interesting mechanisms...

Skills and powers was essentially 2.5e, but it was perhaps less influential? Although it's been a while!

Les Moore · Jun 28, 2018

Ancalagon said:
I really thought that the point about late 3.5 was interesting. It made me realize that I really don't know much about the 3.5 "late game" and I find this a bit disconcerting.

I approached 4e with an open mind. I was fully unaware that WoTC was leading us, like cattle down a chute, toward online play. Nobody else I knew was
aware the game was set up almost solely for online play, either. So, when we plonked down the money for a 4e PHB, it looked, for all the world. like a
locked in, cookie-cutter version of the TTRPG, set up solely to sell miniatures, and introduce new players to a watered down version of the game.

PERHAPS, if WoTC had let the TTRPG crowd in on the little "online play" secret, INSTEAD OF PATRONIZING US, AND TREATING US LIKE A BUNCH OF
MINDLESS THREE-YEAR-OLDS, AND TRYING TO LEAD US AROUND, BY THE NOSE, they would have done better with their highly touted, long awaited
release, of the new version of the game.

Does What-See want to lose a couple hundred million more in revenues? GO AHEAD, treat us like we're all a bunch of idiots, again.

Flexor the Mighty! · Jun 28, 2018

Ancalagon said:
I really thought that the point about late 3.5 was interesting. It made me realize that I really don't know much about the 3.5 "late game" and I find this a bit disconcerting.

Yeah, we never got to the point of all the books beyond the first wave of splats. So all the PHB2, BO9S, etc are alien to me.

Ancalagon · Jun 29, 2018

For those who enjoyed the article: http://dmdavid.com/tag/the-grand-ca...and-other-reactions-from-the-comment-section/

Scroll down for further comments on this series of articles and a bit more "intel" about the business situation.

The roots of 4e exposed?

Jester David

Hero

Aldarc

Legend

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon

Tony Vargas

Legend

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon

Les Moore

Explorer

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon

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