The roots of 4e exposed?

Celebrim

Legend
If we compare a 20 something DM from 1987 with a 20 something DM from 2017, that 1987 guy is probably rocking a small encyclopedia of custom crap.

1982 here. 600+ pages of house rules, just of the ones that are written down.

That said, I understand if rules smithing isn't everyone's thing.

For me the real difference is how much of the rules are assumed to be player driven compared to how much the rules are DM driven, which is to say how much of the rules are flavor driven compared to mechanics driven. Goblins, hobgoblins, sidhe, changlings, pixies, orine and idreth are PC races because they are in my setting, and not because there was a player demand to get a race with a particular combination of bonuses to enable a build they wanted. Ironically, I'm a bit of an 'old school' outlier here, as my impression is that most of the 3e diehards like 3e precisely because its chargen is so player driven.

When I considered running a game in 4e, I notice that a lot of the work was front loaded. That is to say, the designers of the game had done a lot to make it easy to use their stuff, but in doing so they'd also increased the amount of work required to extend the system. Creating a new class for 4e was no light piece of work, and even creating a new interesting monster could be a daunting challenge owing to the complexity of the stat block and the need to make that monster mechanically interesting in 4e's tactical framework. By comparison, creating new content in 1e was owing to the lack of framework a simple exercise in natural language, where creating new content in 3e could be tedious but only for reasons of rote accounting. Now, if you weren't a rules smith, this probably was a welcome change. But if you came at the game as something you were going to customize to your taste and setting, imposing both new mechanics and new rules on your existing setting (and tying the two together strongly) was not something you wanted.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I was with you until this. 5E is successful, cannot deny that, but to attribute that success to 3E players giving it their blessing couldn't be less true. People who like 3E like it for the density of its rules, and the depth and breadth of its character building options. 5E's rules system is extremely streamlined compared to 3E's, and 5E's character building options are downright anemic. 5E's success is in spite of 3E adherents, not because of it.

That depends on what constitutes a "3e adherent". Do you mean someone who stuck to the 3e family (including PF) rather than play 4e? Or do you mean someone who will pretty much never stop playing 3e until something with even more options comes along? Or do you mean people who like the options of the 3e family for when they want to scratch that particular itch, but are willing to play other games? Those are, in essence, three different groups of "3e adherents", two of which will likely have no inherent problem adopting 5e if they like the game.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
3E adherents were enraged by 4E because they didn't have Pathfinder yet, and they were worried about losing support for their game. They have Pathfinder now, so they don't need D&D anymore.
They didn't stop fighting the edition war in 2009.

And it's not like there was a plausible chance that every 3pp was going to abandon the 3.0 & 3.5 SRDs... the potential for continuous, legal support for 3.5 was there in 2008 and remains, today. That can't ever be changed.

It's similar since it retains the d20 resolution mechanic, but it massively changed the skill and proficiency system. Feats and multiclassing are probably the biggest departure in 5E, though. Ability score requirements (from the initial class, no less) to even think about taking another class, not getting all of the features from the additional class, feats being a class feature instead of a character feature, and feats sharing a "character building resource" with ASIs being huge changes to those systems.
ASI's and 'bigger' feats seem like a modest sort of change. They retain the innate flexiblity & customization of feats, if with less granularity and far fewer options.

I was calling the character building system anemic because there are so few ways to differentiate a character mechanically, not because WotC hasn't published enough crunch.
5e has Class & sub-class, background & personality traits, race &sub-race, and optionally Feats & MCing to differentiate characters. 3.5 has race & templates, class, multiclassing & PrCs, and Feats.

But for the vast gulf in sheer number of options under each of those headings, 5e is not particularly behind 3.x in build complexity or amenability customization. That vast gulf is, well, vast, though, so it's not like I'm arguing the end result with you. Just structure (which is very 3.x-like) vs volume of support (which is anemic compared to either 3.5 or PF, even considered separately).
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
1982 here. 600+ pages of house rules, just of the ones that are written down.

That said, I understand if rules smithing isn't everyone's thing.

For me the real difference is how much of the rules are assumed to be player driven compared to how much the rules are DM driven, which is to say how much of the rules are flavor driven compared to mechanics driven. Goblins, hobgoblins, sidhe, changlings, pixies, orine and idreth are PC races because they are in my setting, and not because there was a player demand to get a race with a particular combination of bonuses to enable a build they wanted. Ironically, I'm a bit of an 'old school' outlier here, as my impression is that most of the 3e diehards like 3e precisely because its chargen is so player driven.

When I considered running a game in 4e, I notice that a lot of the work was front loaded. That is to say, the designers of the game had done a lot to make it easy to use their stuff, but in doing so they'd also increased the amount of work required to extend the system. Creating a new class for 4e was no light piece of work, and even creating a new interesting monster could be a daunting challenge owing to the complexity of the stat block and the need to make that monster mechanically interesting in 4e's tactical framework. By comparison, creating new content in 1e was owing to the lack of framework a simple exercise in natural language, where creating new content in 3e could be tedious but only for reasons of rote accounting. Now, if you weren't a rules smith, this probably was a welcome change. But if you came at the game as something you were going to customize to your taste and setting, imposing both new mechanics and new rules on your existing setting (and tying the two together strongly) was not something you wanted.

Kindred spirit on this Celebrim as I've actually written/edited table drafts of the three main 1e rulebooks that had our campaign specific errata and Gary-isms removed or cleaned up. Granted that was a long time ago, and my English grades improved dramatically due to doing it.

When I jumped into 4e, experience told me it was not to be touched or modified casually so I didn't do it and didn't convert my homebrew world to it. It annoyed me but now I see it as a blessing because walking away from it for a decade made me go back and critique things like I never would have otherwise.

Rules smithing isn't everyone's cup of tea, but if you're going to critique a system because it doesn't have all the bells and whistles, as a DM I expect folks to go make some.

2c
KB
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
There are so many things about D&D that are terrible game design, that there's almost no limit to how much of it you could change before you started making it worse instead of better. But the game(npi)-changing, revolitionary 'RPG better than D&D' has been arround virtually since the 2nd (maybe 4th?) RPG was created later in the 70s, one after another, almost without pause, and has had 0 impact on the dominance of D&D.

I found my “better than” in HERO, but 3.X has held steady as my #2. I’m really digging Cypher right noe, but haven’t gotten to give it an in-play shakedown cruise.

But one of the major reasons for D&D’s market dominance is a simple thing: it was first to the market. Being first is the single biggest factor in predicting any product’s success- as I recall, @67% of successful products were first to market.

Continued success, though, means you can’t just rest on your laurels. You have to react- ideally proactively- to market forces. In the RPG market, the biggest manifestation of that is new editions.

4e was enough better than, and different from, D&D to be warred against by the old gaurd, as it was, making it more so would only have further marginalized it - as long as it had the D&D logo. Without the logo, it'd've just been the nth game to come out, be hands-down strictly superior to D&D in every way, maybe win an award or two, and never be heard from again.

I disagree. If ever there was a company in a position to launch a second big RPG title, it was WotC at that time.

The fact that it was labeled D&D was a roadblock to acceptance precisely because it was so different. That label meant it was automatically going to be compared to what was not only the original RPG, but also the most popular game on the market...as a replacement. That’s the New Coke trap to a T; a big part of why people like me said it didn’t feel right.

1) the near absence of iterative attacks. If your attack roll resulted in a miss, you were basically done for the round.
Doesn't that speed up play?
Nope.

Multiple attacks, whether from a single source (iterative attacks, a spell) or massed attackers ganging up boosts DPR or the odds that a side effect will trigger, thus dropping foes more quickly.

Heck, look at some of the more highly regarded 4Ed powers, especially for strikers. Many give an actual second (or more!) attack or let you replace one (presumably failed) roll with the results of a reroll. The conjuror/summoners & pet users can also get this benefit by having minions or powers increase the number of operant effects hitting enemies.

Those all increase statistical odds of success, and that translates into quicker combats.

2) too many short duration and/or small value modifiers. That meant a lot of tracking +1s & +2s from a variety of sources, of various durations. You were almost never attacking with the same attack or damage bonuses as the previous round, which meant doing math every turn.
"Did you remember the +2 I gave you?" Yeah, there was a lot of that. It wasn't any worse than 3e itterative attacks & myriad modifiers.

I beg to differ.

3.X boosters tended to be larger and longer lasting- several rounds at least, if not a whole combat, hours or days of campaign world. The fiddliest modifiers in 3.X were “next roll” (like True Strike) or AoE effects (like the auras of Paladin, Marshalls & Dragon Shamans).

The net effect in 3.X is that- usually- your modifiers changed between combats or game sessions, not between rounds. That’s a LOT less bookkeeping.

some of our less-experienced players struggled with choosing powers, and often were not settled on a course of action when their turn rolled around. I suspect those players would have done better with Essentials classes, but those were not available until after our campaign concluded.
Pregens are a good way to go with new players, and starting at 1st, where the issue is minimized, did not bring with it the problem of the characters being overly fragile. Compared to playing an essentials or other-ed caster, though, 4e classes were fairly streamlined with easy choices among just a few powers, and the choice not being as critical (most rounds you could just use an at will and be fine) vs many, more critical, decisions among spells.

Essentials classes theoretically should have helped returning players who had the expectation that starting with a fighter would be 'simple,' but returning players had been thoroughly turned off by then.

Nobody in our group was a noob, but we did have experience gaps of decades and some were much more casual than others. Had Essentials been part of the initial release, its streamlined class design would have been a HUGE boon to some of them.

However, my understanding of the origins of Essentials was the feedback WotC got after 4Ed’s release, sooooo that was basically impossible. :(

As an essentially toolboxy, genre-neutral type system, that form of 4Ed might have been a second hit for WotC while 3.X trundled along to its natural conclusion, whatever that may ultimately be.

I could even imagine that version of the system still being a market presence today.
I couldn't. The two-prong approach may have worked for the original game, in the fad years, but I doubt even the come-back zietgiest of today could have overcome the confusion of having two or more versions of the game. To stage a come-back, a brand needs more unity of identity than that.

You’re still looking at it as D&D. I’m looking at it as WotC’s HERO or GURPS.

They tried that to a certain extent with 3.X, with Modern and Future, but 3.X isn’t as suited to being toolboxy as the bones of 4Ed.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
At worst been shelved - until the 50th anniversary, perhaps.

Sure. My point is, you can’t blame WotC for trying to monetize the crap out of 4e when Hasbro was pressuring them to meet an unreasonably high bottom line. It was anti-consumer for sure, but it was Hasbro’s fault, not WotCs. We’re seeing the same thing in the AAA video game industry right now, with gamers losing all of their goodwill towards developers who are resorting to unsavory monetization schemes like loot boxes, when it’s the publishers who are pressuring them to do so.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Kindred spirit on this Celebrim as I've actually written/edited table drafts of the three main 1e rulebooks that had our campaign specific errata and Gary-isms removed or cleaned up.

I'm inclined to think a large part of the OSR community is driven by this desire to fix up the old game based on the lessons learned since they first started playing it. For a while there I was greatly tempted to write Celebrim's 1e AD&D rules to make the game I wish I had been playing back in the day, but then I realized that the game would be just a cut down version of 3e with a bunch of nostalgic flourishes that I'd probably never really run.

Still, I occasionally engage in that impulse, such as the rewrite of the rules for 1e AD&D dragons that I engaged in as an exercise a few months back. Sometime I should do the rewritten 1e Thief as well as a long time fan of the class that had a love/hate relationship with one of AD&D's most iconic and yet most unplayable class.

When I jumped into 4e, experience told me it was not to be touched or modified casually...

Back when we had a 3e house rule forum, I spent most of the time telling would be rules smiths to hesitate more before modifying the rules.

It annoyed me but now I see it as a blessing because walking away from it for a decade made me go back and critique things like I never would have otherwise.

By pushing 1st level characters to have more than 1 HD, 4e actually did introduce one major change in my house rules for the exact same reason - and one I've been very happy with. Granted, the change I made was conceptually very different than what 4e did, but it was certainly 4e inspired and had some of the same effects on the procedures of play (more rounds per combat, for example).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Nope.

Multiple attacks, whether from a single source (iterative attacks, a spell) or massed attackers ganging up boosts DPR or the odds that a side effect will trigger, thus dropping foes more quickly
But, they take more time to resolve, especially when each is at a different attack bonus.

Heck, look at some of the more highly regarded 4Ed powers, especially for strikers. Many give an actual second (or more!) attack or let you replace one (presumably failed) roll with the results of a reroll. The conjuror/summoners & pet users can also get this benefit by having minions or powers increase the number of operant effects hitting enemies.
Those are also called out as slowing the game down, though. They are good powers, of course.

Those all increase statistical odds of success, and that translates into quicker combats.
In terms of rounds, sure, I can see that. In terms of how long it takes to resolve the turn where that success happens, though, slower, no?

I beg to differ.
Permission granted!

3.X boosters tended to be larger and longer lasting- several rounds at least, if not a whole combat, hours or days of campaign world. The fiddliest modifiers in 3.X were “next roll” (like True Strike) or AoE effects (like the auras of Paladin, Marshalls & Dragon Shamans).
That's reasonbly fiddly. 3e also had situational modifiers, even that old stand-by, higher ground, that could change every round. And at higher level, those longer-durration bonuses from spells could get targeted-dispelled one round and re-applied later...

... then there were the self-inflicted ones, like power attack & expertise & the various combat options...

I played a fighter in a 3.0/5 campaign that went the whole run, from 2000 until well after 4e had come out in 2008. Modifiers changing every round was routine. Of course, I brought much of that on myself - I liked swapping weapons, using maneuvers, applying Expertise some rounds, etc...
...but the same was true in 4e, you could make a character (or party) with lot of fiddly modifiers, or not. When I did pregen characters for cons, for instance, I'd pick feats with static effects, items with properties, etc, that could just be figured in, so the player wouldn't have to worry about them.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
By pushing 1st level characters to have more than 1 HD, 4e actually did introduce one major change in my house rules for the exact same reason - and one I've been very happy with. Granted, the change I made was conceptually very different than what 4e did, but it was certainly 4e inspired and had some of the same effects on the procedures of play (more rounds per combat, for example).

Very cool. On my end I recently realized that the reason why 1e was so deadly was because it was intended to be played by players running more than one character and in most cases multiple - through the retainer rules. We never played it that way the first time around and tbh it's given me the perspective necessary to play that game with the balance intended.

I'd never had a problem killing PCs with any version of the game, but this is likely going to dramatically affect how I concept games going forward, even if it doesn't change my style otherwise.

KB
 

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