A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why not? An AD&D monk can control when s/he goes into a cataleptic trance that feigns death, ro when s/he recovers lost hit points by way of self-healing. A 3E or 5e barbarian can control when s/he gets really angry. Why can't a 5e fighter control when s/he gets his/her second wind?

For the same reason a PC can't control when he has to go to the bathroom. Some things are not controllable. A second wind comes to a person unbidden. It just happens without the person causing it to be. That's different than psyching yourself into being upset, or training yourself to slow down your heart rate.
 

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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
The rules didn't say anything about them. They only listed them after levels, and mentioned them a few times with regard to the "name levels." Nothing was said that I ever saw about how to use them.



False Equivalence. You know very well I'm talking about people who are not only not as good, but are significantly worse. How many sons of owners got positions as CEO or some other chief and wasn't half as good as some managers or directors? The answer is lots. Titles are almost meaningless to tell just how skilled someone is at a job.

Of course it is a false equivalence, no Doctors can cast spells! And although your dad can make you CEO of his company he cant get you that Doctorate qualification that you wanted, only an honourary one.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Really? I thought 1e made a lot more sense than 3e. In 1e, you are for all intents and purposes inventing a new class. You are not a fighter or a magic user. You are a fighter/magic-user. You are advancing both capabilities at the exact same time. You are using them both at the same time. Dual classing made no sense to me but multiclassing made a lot of sense.

Well ADnD locked you into a fixed class progression which you said that you did not like.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Why not? An AD&D monk can control when s/he goes into a cataleptic trance that feigns death, ro when s/he recovers lost hit points by way of self-healing.
Both of these take some time and concentration, I think. I haven't looked at 1e RAW for Monks in forever but I think the self-heal in particular takes a bit of time and isn't something done under duress.

A 3E or 5e barbarian can control when s/he gets really angry.
I'm not a huge fan of this, personally. I'd rather see it that if the Barb takes any damage there's a risk she rages then and there, and if she goes below half h.p. it's automatic rage if she hasn't already gone off; but she can only rage a couple of times per day (at least an hour apart) in total because it's just too exhausting, and then can't rage again until she's had a good long overnight sleep.

Why can't a 5e fighter control when s/he gets his/her second wind?
::shrug::

Second wind isn't a mechanic I'd ever use anyway.

On this point I think that [MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] is obviously right. Why would anyone use a grading system that can't distinguish between the character who can cast only Magic Missile, and the character who can cast Fireball? Especially when the ranking of capabilities is a repeated and rigid phenomenon across all the wizards in the land?

As soon as you treat spell levels and slots as real, ingame phenomena, then the wizards in their schools will be able to establish a ranking system that every wizard (at least until 9th level) sits within, and that correlates exactly to the levels set out in the PHB.
Agreed. Same goes for Clerics, Bards and Monks...and maybe Rangers and Paladins too, once they get to high enough level to start casting spells.

How do you handle wights, wraiths and other level-draining undead, then?
If one kind of sees xp as a form of memory, where you've taken in and processed your lived experiences into learning and knowledge and skill, then a level drain can be seen and even narrated as a memory-weakening or memory-loss effect; with the loss of knowledge and skills a direct corollary effect of this.

It's not the best rationalization, perhaps, but it's a try. :)

Or magic item creation in 3E?
Dumb mechanic, that, as written. I'd handle it by changing it. A lot.

Following [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]'s reasoning, choosing equipment in D&D also has a strong metagame aspect to it: iron spikes, 10' poles, Find Traps, etc - the logic of all these is established by the D&D dungeoneering framework. Again, layering a veneer of infiction rationale over this doesn't change the underlying logic.
I think this is a bit harsh.

There's two ways a neophyte adventurer or party can learn these sort of things in character:

1. Spend an afternoon in the local pub with someone who's done some adventuring and get some tips and pointers.
2. Trial and error.

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
For me its not "run it that way" its "thats how it runs". Your last sentence makes no sense to my experience because the character is in no observable/measurable way "beaten up", but they do have an observable/measurable "doom clock". This whole conversation started as a response to the idea that players shouldn't use "metagame" information/mechanics to inform their decisions. Well, If HP loss has no implications for the character's physical performance...then it can't be having physical effects that the character can notice, can it? The "injuries" exist solely on the meta-level of that "doom-meter". So, effectively, for me, everyone in a D&D world is wallking around with a little bar floating over their heads, which gets shorter the more you attack them. Its why HP are "metagame" mechanic.
There's all kinds of minor injuries one can sustain without significantly affecting one's ability to do whatever. Scratches, bruises, minor cuts, a tooth knocked out: these are the clues that tell the other PCs (and the party healer, one hopes!) that you're getting kicked around a bit and could use some patching up, even as you keep on fighting.

D&D as written certainly does need a lot more space between fully functional (1 h.p.) and unconscious/dead (0 h.p.), I won't argue that for a second.

In our games we've waved at this a bit - you die at -10 but if you're at or below 0 your abilities are impaired and you risk falling unconscious; we also added "body points" of which most PCs have between about 2 to 5, locked in during char-gen and never* changing; these sit under your "fatigue points" (i.e. the h.p. you roll as normal) and are much harder to cure or rest up. (any points below 0 are also considered bodies for purposes of curing etc.)

* - unless something permanently damaging happens e.g. you lose a limb.

Lanefan
 

pemerton

Legend
For the same reason a PC can't control when he has to go to the bathroom. Some things are not controllable. A second wind comes to a person unbidden. It just happens without the person causing it to be. That's different than psyching yourself into being upset, or training yourself to slow down your heart rate.
This is all just assertion. Even the bit about not being able to control when you urinate.
 

pemerton

Legend
If HP loss has no implications for the character's physical performance...then it can't be having physical effects that the character can notice, can it? The "injuries" exist solely on the meta-level of that "doom-meter". So, effectively, for me, everyone in a D&D world is wallking around with a little bar floating over their heads, which gets shorter the more you attack them. Its why HP are "metagame" mechanic.
There's all kinds of minor injuries one can sustain without significantly affecting one's ability to do whatever. Scratches, bruises, minor cuts, a tooth knocked out: these are the clues that tell the other PCs (and the party healer, one hopes!) that you're getting kicked around a bit and could use some patching up, even as you keep on fighting.
But why do you need "patching up", if they're not being impeded in their performance?

In my experience, the actual play of hit points and healing is all about making sure no one drops below zero; but how do the PCs know that any given PC is close to dying, if all they can see as some random assortment of minor wounds?

To give a concrete example. A PC has 30 hp. Scenario 1: s/he takes four 7-hp wounds from orcs, and has 2 hp left. Scenario 2: s/he takes 28 hp from a fireball and has 2 hp left. The former has 4 minor, non-debilitating injuries. The latter has 1 of these. But both need the same amount of healing and are equally close to death. How do the PCs know all this?
 

I'm not sure but at low levels probably not a lot but at higher levels it would keep you more cautious. I'm guessing. Assuming various powers that attack Harm 3 or Harm 4 come into play more at high levels, and the boxes don't change, then of course the threat of death would be high at any level. Perhaps unmanageably high but again I'd have to see an entire system to know for sure.

I am happy enough with a moderately unrealistic system like hit points for a high fantasy super heroic game. I might also enjoy a less super heroic game. In such cases maybe WOIN or GURPS or even RQ would work. This is a totally different axis from metagame. I wouldn't want a metagame mechanic in any of those games if I had a choice. I think I could enjoy any of those games otherwise but I'd still favor the high fantasy game of D&D style the most.

[MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] (and [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] and perhaps [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] ), you (and Lanefan) answered my question with a response about the implications on the gameplay paradigm; eg “it would make it more lethal.”

This thread is about “metagame mechanics” and players making decisions based exclusively on (what you perceive as) observable phenomenon (biological, physical) from the character’s perspective.

I’m looking for your response in relation to that. So let me go a bit further and perhaps you can comment on this.

A 10th level Fighter is challenging a trio of Stone Giants on the edge of their plateau which sits 70 feet above the ground.

Situation 1:

a) He has 100 HPs and the only chance the fall has to kill him is if he’s been significantly worn down in combat by interaction with the Stone Giants and their clubs (that are as big and weighty as him) and thrown boulders.

b) As he waded in he sees a show of strength by the Stone Giant Cheieftan; the impact of one of these clubs and/or thrown boulders utterly ruins a rock formation of approximately his size. However, because of his HP pool relative to their attacks, he knows (for sure) it will take a large number of interactions with these mighty creatures before he is then under immediate threat of death and he’ll never be under threat of a collapsed lung, a crushed pelvis, or even a concussion.

Situation 2:

a) A fall from that height is almost surely going to kill him (Harm 4) unless his God spares him (a difficult chance for a Saving Throw). Even then, he’s going to come away from the fall with something grave that will stick with him for a long while (at best a couple of broken ribs and a concussion; both Harm 2 boxes filled which will cause x and y mechanical interactions for z duration of care/recovery).

b) As he waded in he sees a show of strength by the Stone Giant Cheieftan; the impact of one of these clubs and/or thrown boulders utterly ruins a rock formation of approximately his size. He’s certain that his heavy armor will deflect the worst of it for an impact or two (say Heavy Armor can reduce Harm from those blows by 2 until it becomes useless), but after that, he can rely solely on his training, footwork, guile, grit, and the favor of the gods so that he doesn’t become pasted (Saving Throw vs Harm 2 for every attack, success outright mitigating it and a few times per combat he can knock Harm down one step due to his prowess).


I’m looking for a response about the juxtaposition of the above two paradigms that engages with the thread topic.
 

pemerton

Legend
I’m looking for a response about the juxtaposition of the above two paradigms that engages with the thread topic.
It's an interesting juxtaposition.

Obviously 4e, BW and Cortex+ Heroic (the three systems I work with at the moment) handle this very differently. 4e is closest to your (1), BW to your (2). Cortex+ Heroic is intermediate.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Of course it is a false equivalence, no Doctors can cast spells! And although your dad can make you CEO of his company he cant get you that Doctorate qualification that you wanted, only an honourary one.

Okay. I'm done. You've dodged my argument sufficiently to show people that you know I am correct here. Peace!
 

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