A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

Ovinomancer · Jul 18, 2018

Manbearcat said:
Sorry [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] (yes, that is the sort of reply I was looking for) and @ Emerikol . I’ll get back to your guys’ responses as soon as I can. Pretty tied up.

Yup, I was referring to Blades (also, I think you may have a different copy than mine because mine is H1 -H4; Lesser, Moderate, Severe, Fatal...no H5!)!

Death Spiral is certainly a concern (because it’s not fun and not genre coherent). However, I think a Harm model could pretty deftly hook into D&D’s mechanics, allowing for these looming threats, but also allowing for interesting decision-points and archetypal realization.

For instance, with 5e:

1) Imagine a Fighter’s Second Wind allowing them to shrug of H1 outright or turn H2 into H1.

2) Imagine a Cleric’s Cure line being able to grant a new Saving Throw to move (say) H2 to H1, with higher Cures able to mitigate higher Harm levels or provide Advantage to the Saving Throw.

3) Imagine Armor being a limited use active defense in that you can use it at your discretion to mitigate Harm or provide Advantage on a Saving Throw. It “recharges” once repaired (giving Fighter-types a crafting niche).

Stuff like this should alleviate the Death Spiral. You’d just have to sort out the Saving Throw DCs (that and the severity of Harm could be tailored to genre tastes).

Sure, but that would require a major overhaul of the combat engine -- its not an easy swap.

As for harm, L4 is out of action, yes, but not necessarily dead. L5 is straight dead, don't pass go. Trying to leap through the Lightning fences by timing the bolts would be a desperate enhanced roll with the explicit caveat that failure is a L5 harm -- you vaporize. The player could then spend edge to deny that outcome and maybe get L4, really cooked but alive, out of it. I'd probably require removing an equipment box or two or a L3 harm on a partial, but that's open. Regardless, trying to jump through lightning fences is a bad idea.

chaochou · Jul 18, 2018

Ovinomancer said:
Yes, game design is, by definition, meta. The resulting design may just be an abstraction. Our decision to play a hame because we find its mechanics fun is meta. The mechanics aren't meta because of our having fun with them.

The trouble with D&D hitpoints is that they're such nonsensical rubbish - far beyond 'abstraction' and into the realms of gibberish - that they're not fun.

Kobold Boots · Jul 18, 2018

chaochou said:
The trouble with D&D hitpoints is that they're such nonsensical rubbish - far beyond 'abstraction' and into the realms of gibberish - that they're not fun.

What would you suggest in replacement that would be?

chaochou · Jul 18, 2018

Kobold Boots said:
What would you suggest in replacement that would be?

I'm not wasting my time. You've already announced your head is firmly in the sand.

Kobold Boots said:
My opinion = my opinion, so as far as I'm concerned = I'm right.

The Crimson Binome · Jul 18, 2018

chaochou said:
The trouble with D&D hitpoints is that they're such nonsensical rubbish - far beyond 'abstraction' and into the realms of gibberish - that they're not fun.

I dunno, they seem pretty realistic to me. If you hit someone with a baseball bat, then they're going to be pretty messed up, and if you keep hitting them then eventually they will die.

Ovinomancer · Jul 18, 2018

chaochou said:
The trouble with D&D hitpoints is that they're such nonsensical rubbish - far beyond 'abstraction' and into the realms of gibberish - that they're not fun.

I have no problems with your preference on this matter and am happy you have non-hp outlets to enjoy. I don't mind hitpoints -- they enable a certain kind of play that I enjoy -- and I don't have a lot of problems conceptualizing them in the play space as near misses, grazes, scratches, and bruises. I can easily see how others can have a problem, esoecially if they consider hitpoints a meat (a valid opinion).

None of this, however, addresses the meta vs abstraction discussion we were having. Are we done with that?

chaochou · Jul 18, 2018

Saelorn said:
I dunno, they seem pretty realistic to me. If you hit someone with a baseball bat, then they're going to be pretty messed up.

And how does being 'messed up' translate into D&Ds hit points?

Well, let's see now: No pain, no shock, no keeling over winded, no fractures or breaks or sprains, punctures, no internal bleeding, no external bleeding, no concussion, no muscles tears or ligament damage, no fatigue, or loss of strength or balance, no change in perception.

Get someone to smash you around with a baseball bat for a bit and see if none of those thing happen to you - then get back to me on the claims of 'realism'.

It's an utterly anodyne representation of combat as a mathematical exercise in reducing a the enemy to zero HP before yours reach zero. A total fail to describe any possible realities of combat attrition. DYD HP couldn't be less realistic.

Kobold Boots · Jul 18, 2018

chaochou said:
I'm not wasting my time. You've already announced your head is firmly in the sand.

That's a fair but illogical assessment on your part considering my head is in the sand on a completely different topic than the one I asked you to elaborate on.

Therefore I will assess that you have nothing of worth to contribute other than a poor attitude on the subject at hand and are simply venting.

Be well,
KB

Kobold Boots · Jul 18, 2018

chaochou said:
And how does being 'messed up' translate into D&Ds hit points?

Well, let's see now: No pain, no shock, no keeling over winded, no fractures or breaks or sprains, punctures, no internal bleeding, no external bleeding, no concussion, no muscles tears or ligament damage, no fatigue, or loss of strength or balance, no change in perception.

Get someone to smash you around with a baseball bat for a bit and see if none of those thing happen to you - then get back to me on the claims of 'realism'.

It's an utterly anodyne representation of combat as a mathematical exercise in reducing a the enemy to zero HP before yours reach zero. A total fail to describe any possible realities of combat attrition. DYD HP couldn't be less realistic.

I fall into a few categories that are semi-relevant.

- Former SCA Heavy List (Go Weresheep!)
- Martial artist
- Tech guy that's good with numbers

So I can tell you with some experience that games that heavily model combat to take into account such events tend to cater to a certain demograph who love that kind of stuff or take longer to run or at the least take a lot interest in accounting for things that many gamers can't stand worrying about in their escapism.. (Uncle Mort had an arrow go through his spleen.. now he's got a flaw that says he can't eat dairy.. good thing we're not fighting the ice cream beast)

Now I, actually would love it if there was a system that made better sense than hit points, which is why I asked you what your solution might be. Still open to discussing that as it might be more productive than witty banter back and forth about what people don't like.

Be well
KB

Shasarak · Jul 18, 2018

chaochou said:
Get someone to smash you around with a baseball bat for a bit and see if none of those thing happen to you - then get back to me on the claims of 'realism'.

I only have 1d6 Hps and the baseball bat is going to do 1d6+Str damage to me, so why would I want them to have even one swing at me?