A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
You may be confusing that with 3e. In 1e, you divide all x.p. across each of your classes as you gain them. Typically when you hit a new level in one class your others are not far behind. Typically a 7/7 character would be the same as a 10 level single class character advancement wise.
We find usually an x/x double-class character is vaguely equal to an x+1 single class, with some variance depending on what the particular classes are.

The actual xp numbers mostly agree with this; remember the j-curve on the 1e advancement tables as written is pretty steep.

The one double-class combination that throws all these nice generalities off is Ranger-MU* - both slow-advancing classes that can eat up gobs of xp before seeing any appreciable level advancement. But multiclass Rangers are a headache anyway, so I've rather harshly cut back on them over the years.

* - we allow a considerably greater breadth of multi-class combinations than the game as written.
 

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Emerikol

Adventurer
We find usually an x/x double-class character is vaguely equal to an x+1 single class, with some variance depending on what the particular classes are.

The actual xp numbers mostly agree with this; remember the j-curve on the 1e advancement tables as written is pretty steep.

The one double-class combination that throws all these nice generalities off is Ranger-MU* - both slow-advancing classes that can eat up gobs of xp before seeing any appreciable level advancement. But multiclass Rangers are a headache anyway, so I've rather harshly cut back on them over the years.

* - we allow a considerably greater breadth of multi-class combinations than the game as written.

You may be right. I must be thinking a 7/10 f/mu is equivalent to a 12 standard class. It gradually separates into two levels.

A 7/10 is the same as a 10/10 of course since even after reaching max 7 in fighter you still only get half for the magic user.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
You may be right. I must be thinking a 7/10 f/mu is equivalent to a 12 standard class. It gradually separates into two levels.

A 7/10 is the same as a 10/10 of course since even after reaching max 7 in fighter you still only get half for the magic user.
We took nearly all the racial etc. maxima off ages ago as well. Multi-classing works the same for all races, other than some races simply cannot be some classes e.g. there are no Dwarf Magic-Users*. But an Elf and a Human, for example, multi-class just the same as each other in our system.

Lan-"we don't allow Gnome Paladins either; and I can think of at least one poster on these boards who of this would approve"-efan
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
You may be confusing that with 3e. In 1e, you divide all x.p. across each of your classes as you gain them. Typically when you hit a new level in one class your others are not far behind. Typically a 7/7 character would be the same as a 10 level single class character advancement wise.

No the differences between ADnD and 3e are pretty clear. I think Lanefan explained it pretty well the real difference is that 3e does what Lanefans split XP system also does.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm probably more of a rules as physics kind of guy. There seems to be a correlation between my different views but not a necessary correlation.
But in this case, you can just read the mechanics of encounter powers and the like into the physics of the world. Just like a character knows that being hit by a longsword will never maim or cause serious bleeding, but will simply whittle away staying power, so s/he knows that once between hour rests s/he can make an extra spurt of action (or whatever else it is that is on a short rest recovery basis).

********************************

you've picked up some bruises and maybe lost a tooth
So does hit point loss cause a penaltu to chewing in your game?

Or wing buffets, or claw scratches - maybe I even got clipped by its breath weapon. The "hit or two" would have, in the fiction, been whatever caused the damage that took me from 65 to 40 or whatever.
My point is that "a hit or two" from a dragon's bite, which doesn't slow me down or generate any need even for bandaging, is very hard for me to envisage. What is actually happening in the fiction?

Dragon's probably bend the reality to the breaking point in both our approaches.
Well, if you're prepared to treat hp loss as near misses, scratches, running down luck, etc, plus allow that high level PCs have supernatural resilience, then they're not too bad.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
No the differences between ADnD and 3e are pretty clear.
Yes, and I just realized one more - see below.
I think Lanefan explained it pretty well the real difference is that 3e does what Lanefans split XP system also does.
I'm not quite sure how you're arriving at this conclusion, but...OK.

One other very signficant difference between my system (or normal 1e, for all that) and 3e is this: in my system you're putting xp into a class before you level up in that class - the end result clearly matches the process that got it there in that xp put into class A as I go along result in a bump in class A once I get enough. In-game, the character is consciously trying to improve a specific set of abilities (class) and the xp total meta-measures that improvement.

In 3e it's not until you bump that you're forced to retroactively (!) decide where that last level's worth of xp was actually going. I'm a Ranger 8 and just got my 9th - and only now must I decide whether to go R-9 or R-8/Cleric-1. I've been earning xp, sure, but not in any particular class: the process and the end result don't quite match in that those xp could, when I bump, retroactively go into class A or B or C or wherever. In-game there's no process required of the character (though some DMs did houserule that you had to declare at the start of each level where that level's xp were going), just a meta-choice on bumping as to what class to put that level's worth of xp into.

Just on this, 3e = way more meta. :)

Lan-"and the above is true for single-class characters too"-efan
 

I'm not seeking an absolute simulation. I am though wanting the information to be character information. And the player is the one who calculates and interprets. The character is acting on what would likely be instinctual knowledge. And in my games wounds don't appear and disappear without magic being involved. I can imagine that magic can in theory do anything and is constrained mainly by the type of game you desire.

I explained this above but let me emphasize it. The character is not thinking about numbers. The player gets the number from the DM and it is interpreted down to the character. This is necessary because the DM is our senses and language is our medium. The DM paints a picture and the character view comes into focus by filling in the details. So when you are in a terrible fight and are being driven back and are taking a few wounds, your anxiety over potential death will be the same anxiety generated by dwindling hit points.

That is a common accusation but for me it is not a correct description of my thinking on the matter. Abstract descriptive information about in game state used to convey information to a character is different from a player driven mechanic happening outside the character's mind and which the character would likely not choose. And I have no issue with anyone objecting to Hit Points for a variety of reasons like you don't like that level of abstraction. My only assertion is that I am consistent in what I like.

Emerikol, let me pose you a question.

I'm not sure you've ever GMed or played under the following paradigm, so let me lay it out. Try to conceive of simply switching out the HP model from your current game for a low overhead system that handles it in fictional terms that also intersect with action resolution (what action declarations might be permissible, what may be penalized).

It looks like this. Instead of HP ablation, when you're physically imposed upon by the world, you roll some kind of Saving Throw. If you fail, you receive some kind of Harm. Harm has 5 boxes and comes in 4 stages.

Harm 1 has two boxes.
Harm 2 has two boxes
Harm 3 has one box
Harm 4 is death

Harm 1 might be Confused, Demoralized, Distracted
Harm 2 might be Concussed, Sprained Ankle, Panick-ridden
Harm 3 might be Nervous Breakdown, Broken Hand, Impaled Shoulder

You could have multiple Harm spanning multiple boxes. But if you fill up Harm 1's two boxes, any further Harm 1 you get automatically becomes Harm 2 (and so on, until you're dead).

Each Harm level and condition comes with an codified impact on action resolution and fictional adjudication (eg Confused carries action resolution consequence
x when you attempt declaration y or z...and it also arises that some things become non-permissible - how are you running the rooftops with that sprained ankle?).

Each Harm level and condition comes with a codified means of removal (duration and care/therapy required to remove).

Something like this is pretty trivially integrated into D&D (especially given the fiddly, not-well-integrated or conceived, and unwieldy subsystems that I've seen folks try to hack onto various D&D substrate).

So my question is:

How do you think supplanting HP ablation for such a system would impact your play?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So does hit point loss cause a penaltu to chewing in your game?
Sigh.

Usually not; and nor does a hockey player lose a tooth in every game. Simply used as a real-world example of a minor but painful injury a player can (and often does) play through.

My point is that "a hit or two" from a dragon's bite, which doesn't slow me down or generate any need even for bandaging, is very hard for me to envisage. What is actually happening in the fiction?
If a dragon bit you twice and knocked out 25 of your 65 hit points in total there's all kinds of ways to narrate it: you've a couple of big-time bruises on your hip where the teeth caught you but didn't get enough grip to pick you up and throw you (dunno 'bout you but my dragons like to play with their food :) ) and are otherwise somewhat winded and out of breath; or you've got a shoulder-to-hip line of noticeable but fairly tolerable pain down your side where a tooth ran your chainmail armour into your skin between the underpadding; or the thing briefly had hold of your foot before you escaped with only a couple of scratches and a no-longer-new left boot; or.....need I go on?

In any case, with each of these hits comes the realization to the character that she's only good for so many more of these before fatigue and pain catch up to her and render her vulnerable to a killing blow (i.e. at the table she gets to a low enough h.p. total that one more hit will finish her off).

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Emerikol, let me pose you a question.

I'm not sure you've ever GMed or played under the following paradigm, so let me lay it out. Try to conceive of simply switching out the HP model from your current game for a low overhead system that handles it in fictional terms that also intersect with action resolution (what action declarations might be permissible, what may be penalized).

It looks like this. Instead of HP ablation, when you're physically imposed upon by the world, you roll some kind of Saving Throw. If you fail, you receive some kind of Harm. Harm has 5 boxes and comes in 4 stages.

Harm 1 has two boxes.
Harm 2 has two boxes
Harm 3 has one box
Harm 4 is death

Harm 1 might be Confused, Demoralized, Distracted
Harm 2 might be Concussed, Sprained Ankle, Panick-ridden
Harm 3 might be Nervous Breakdown, Broken Hand, Impaled Shoulder

You could have multiple Harm spanning multiple boxes. But if you fill up Harm 1's two boxes, any further Harm 1 you get automatically becomes Harm 2 (and so on, until you're dead).

Each Harm level and condition comes with an codified impact on action resolution and fictional adjudication (eg Confused carries action resolution consequence
x when you attempt declaration y or z...and it also arises that some things become non-permissible - how are you running the rooftops with that sprained ankle?).

Each Harm level and condition comes with a codified means of removal (duration and care/therapy required to remove).

Something like this is pretty trivially integrated into D&D (especially given the fiddly, not-well-integrated or conceived, and unwieldy subsystems that I've seen folks try to hack onto various D&D substrate).

So my question is:

How do you think supplanting HP ablation for such a system would impact your play?
Not [MENTION=10638]Emirikol[/MENTION] but this has caught my interest, at least on the surface of it.

To answer your last question first, changing to a system like this would immediately up the 'gritty' factor by a whole bunch...maybe even too much; I wouldn't know until I tried it.

But on first reading I also have some questions; though fair enough if you don't have the asnwers if this is something you just dreamed up and haven't thought all the way through yet:

Does the saving throw to avoid ticking a harm box get varied or amended by the source of the damage? For example, is a harm save vs. a dagger blow easier than a harm save vs. a greatsword blow or a hit from a giant's club?

If yes to the above, do the saving throws get progressively more difficult with each success unitl one fails, then get reset? (this to allow for a 'death by a thousand cuts' narrative)

Where is 'unconscious' as a condition? Could it be a modifier to the save against harm 4 - if you roll within +/-3 of the DC or cutoff point you're unconscious instead of dead, maybe; and if left untended you'll later (maybe minutes, maybe hours, whenever) get another save, where you either wake up (and live), remain unconscious (and repeat this process later), or die?

How does magical healing or curing work with any of this?

Panic-ridden, Confused, and Demoralized are all conditions that can be inflicted by spell (in 1e D&D: Cause Fear, Confusion, and Emotion respectively) - what's the interaction here? Do these spells now just tick a harm box?

Lanefan
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
I'm not seeking an absolute simulation. I am though wanting the information to be character information. And the player is the one who calculates and interprets. The character is acting on what would likely be instinctual knowledge. And in my games wounds don't appear and disappear without magic being involved.

Just for clarity's sake. I'm not seeking simulation, either. I'm just seeking a coherent, interesting narrative (preferably with a light mechanical overhead as well). I haven't played in your games, but in every other D&D game I've played in, DMs will casually describe a hit...and then that description is quickly abandoned in the face of the HP total. I think the dissonance that it causes is why so many DMs abandon describing the hits with any detail beyond...you guessed it, a HP total. (Although perhaps time to resolve combat rounds is a bigger factor there.)

Best of luck with your games.
 

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