Multi-classing: as good as it seems?

DEFCON 1 · Jul 5, 2018

I've always found multiclass "dipping" purely for mechanical benefit and without story justification to be incredibly lame. Which is why it never happens at my tables. If any players feel like they want/need some game mechanic that can only be found in some other class, I have no problem with just doing feature swaps so they can have it. A Cleric wants a Fighting Style? Absolutely, I'll give them a fighting style in exchange for one of their other features. A Paladin wants a ranged spell cantrip because it fits their character theme? No problem, we'll make a switch.

But if you are going to multiclass, especially at the beginning of your character career, then I'm expecting you to pretty much split levels evenly between the two classes. And if you voluntarily do that because it is a part of your character's story? Then I'll be appreciative and probably still give you your "character level" abilities like Extra Attack or your ASIs at your proper character level anyway. Because game mechanics are just numbers and I can balance them relatively easily-- both between PCs and between the PCs and the game world. So I'm not going to be a stickler for where/when/how you get game mechanics... I'm much more concerned about your PC's story and how balanced the STORY is in the world and between other PCs.

Ralif Redhammer · Jul 5, 2018

In my experience, I’ve yet to see someone get significantly ahead by multiclassing. Sure, the dex fighter with a few levels of rogue gets sneak attack, but their sneak attack is less than that of a full-blooded rogue, and their HP less than that of a plain fighter.

In my last campaign, someone went so far as to triple-class sorcerer/cleric/fighter. Sure, he had some neat tricks and a broader set of abilities. But during the last few battles, he complained that his spells rarely were as effective because the enemies made their saves most of the time, because his DCs were lower.

Oofta · Jul 5, 2018

I've multi-classed for flavor and because it made sense for the character, but I didn't really do it for optimization. That, and trying to compare build X to build Y always seems fraught with assumptions.

The only multi-class that I personally find annoying is the 2 level dip into warlock so you recharge spells after a short rest. I don't know that it really adds much to power level, but thematically it doesn't make a lot of sense in my campaign because you effectively have 2 masters. That and when you put limits on rests (I frequently have 6-10 fights between long rests) it throws things off. But they're only getting low level spells back while sacrificing higher level ... back to apples and oranges.

Warpiglet · Jul 5, 2018

Ancalagon said:
The problem with this is that it's not always possible from a "story" perspective.

The other day [MENTION=6689161]Warpiglet[/MENTION] came up with a very good character concept and we bounced ideas on how to do it, rule wise. The base concept is a character who's experimented upon by a powerful evil wizard, resulting in warlock levels. I thought I would have the character be a fighter level 2-3, and then move on warlock (hexblade) from there.

But that means your level 5 *will* be delayed! The story dictates the order of levels, and that's not always the "best" one.

Fortunately, there are a few ways to skin a cat. This is why even after our discussion I am trying to decide between taking a level of fighter or to start as a hexblade.

If I go fighter, I want to make sure I can take arcana or perhaps magic initiate to show he was already on the path the spell-slinging. I almost always try to do some foreshadowing for any multiclass character to show that the whole has already been in development from the start (i.e. no suddenly taking wizard levels at 10th with a pure fighter unless story reasons emerge in play).

I think there are ways to show where you are going from the start. In my example I am taking mercenary veteran background and arcana as a skill. In this way, I feel fine taking hexblade at the start OR fighter. It just comes down to deciding which will be more fun and in honesty, which will give me more goodies that match the concept for the cheapest price.

Many of the oft criticized feats do a great job of showing a concept. For example, take martial weapon master (The real name escapes me) and a soldier background and I can "buy" the fact that you will might take some martial class later, etc.

I like to telegraph the overall concept early, even before the other level is added, if I am able.

Warpiglet · Jul 5, 2018

Ralif Redhammer said:
In my experience, I’ve yet to see someone get significantly ahead by multiclassing. Sure, the dex fighter with a few levels of rogue gets sneak attack, but their sneak attack is less than that of a full-blooded rogue, and their HP less than that of a plain fighter.

In my last campaign, someone went so far as to triple-class sorcerer/cleric/fighter. Sure, he had some neat tricks and a broader set of abilities. But during the last few battles, he complained that his spells rarely were as effective because the enemies made their saves most of the time, because his DCs were lower.

I agree with you wholeheartedly but just wondered why the difficulty class of saves would be different? I was under the impression those are rooted in prof bonus and ability score.

(as an aside, not being critical just trying to make sure I did not misunderstand a rule!)

that said, I think you are right. You can get some interesting combos or whatever and there are a few that seem a little goofy (maybe quickened agonizing blast at level 11+) but I believe the single class or perhaps the single plus 1 level of something else has a power advantage (higher levels spells/abilities).

Of course I usually say play what seems cool as long as you don't go out of your way to be ineffective...it will be AOK.

5ekyu · Jul 5, 2018

Ancalagon said:
Another thing, and an important one I think:

I'm not sure that balancing across levels is a good idea, or even fair. It used to be that wizards were quite weak at low levels, compared to say a fighter, and very potent at high levels. This was seen as balanced "overall ", but many felt that this wasn't a good way to balance classes.

Played a lot during that era. It was what it was.

Moving on to other systems and different methods the idea of having balance be more enduring and consistent has seemed to play better but...

As always balance in play comes more from GM than from system. System needs to be better than utter crap for balance, no just egregious total fails.

After that its the **needs** that drive the balance between pcs more than anything else except actual pc choices.)

GlassJaw · Jul 5, 2018

Nice to see the grognard rage over multi-classing is starting to lessen. If anything, I think multi-classing in 5E is underpowered.

I'm also in the camp that if a player has a cool concept for a character and they are engaged in the game, go for it. I may require some background story but it the "requirements" would be pretty minimal.

I also don't have any issue with multi-classing during the game. I don't really view classes as "jobs", like someone who is a plumber that decides to become a doctor. To me, a character is a sum of all their abilities, regardless of the what class they came from. I've played enough skill-based/classless systems so things like class dipping or switching gears doesn't phase me at all.

I do like the idea of working with a player to swap out class abilities though. I wish there was more of that type of customization. I'd like to see things like granting sneak attack to other classes, swapping spell lists, mixing-and-matching class paths, or even class paths that are "universal" and could apply to multiple classes.

Ralif Redhammer · Jul 5, 2018

No worries! His spell DCs were adversely affected by three things:

1 – Dividing his class between three meant that he didn’t get to his third ASI, only getting two between his three classes.
2 – Clerics and Sorcerers spell DCs base off of two different stats.
3 – (And this one is really outside of multiclassing, but it compounded the issue) He spent at least one of his ASIs on a feat (Lucky).

If I sound a little salty, it’s because, like I said, the player complained that something was wrong with the system because his spells weren’t as effective at the end. Because he went for breadth, not depth. He was trying to game the system, but it ended up balancing itself out despite his efforts. Yay 5e!

Warpiglet said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly but just wondered why the difficulty class of saves would be different? I was under the impression those are rooted in prof bonus and ability score.

(as an aside, not being critical just trying to make sure I did not misunderstand a rule!)

Warpiglet · Jul 5, 2018

Ralif Redhammer said:
No worries! His spell DCs were adversely affected by three things:

1 – Dividing his class between three meant that he didn’t get to his third ASI, only getting two between his three classes.
2 – Clerics and Sorcerers spell DCs base off of two different stats.
3 – (And this one is really outside of multiclassing, but it compounded the issue) He spent at least one of his ASIs on a feat (Lucky).

If I sound a little salty, it’s because, like I said, the player complained that something was wrong with the system because his spells weren’t as effective at the end. Because he went for breadth, not depth. He was trying to game the system, but it ended up balancing itself out despite his efforts. Yay 5e!

thanks for the clarification. go ahead and be salty. cannot have your cake and eat it too (and complain on top of it!).

I think the system is actually pretty balanced. I never feel totally outclassed as a player unless someone rolls stats (not witnessed of course) and takes every possible feat while I am trying to get to 18 in a primary stat or whatever.

Even then, its not too bad. My pal is a concept guy and sometimes takes several classes. He is perfectly competent but really does not out perform or make others look feeble. A straight fighter or wizard seems pretty darn good to me.

MonkeezOnFire · Jul 5, 2018

There's another player in my group that always plays a multiclassed character. So far none of his combinations have seemed really over powered or under powered. Generally he has some goal in mind to focus his abilities on. This is most prominent with his rogue/warlock character that has become quite the expert at hit and run tactics. Booming blade + cunning action disengage, or using darkness + devil's sight to enable sneak attacks and relative safe ambushes. It's a neat alternative to the Arcane Trickster for the niche of magical sneaky character. We have recently reunited with our monk so it will be interesting to see how they compare against each other in this role.

Multi-classing: as good as it seems?

DEFCON 1

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Ralif Redhammer

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Oofta

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Warpiglet

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Warpiglet

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5ekyu

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