Gender and Sexuality in Golarion

Fauchard1520

Adventurer
I've always thought that Paizo does an exceptionally good job at representation. Between their diverse cast of iconics and the general attitude of equality between the sexes in the setting, Golarion seems like a truly inclusive place (matriarchal drow and patriarchal orcs notwithstanding).

I've got a few thoughts on today's comic, but here's the big question for my fellow pathfinders: How do you deal with gender and sexuality at your table? Do you downplay it? Make it a major setting detail? Try to ignore it? Is it even something you think about when you play?
 

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Celebrim

Legend
“In the game… the only differences between the two genders are cosmetic.”

I don't believe this is true in real life. I also don't think it is nearly as relevant as some people think it is, as I don't think whether or not the only differences between the genders are cosmetic matters much. That is to say, whether or not the only differences between genders are cosmetic, men and women would still be equally valuable, deserve equal rights before the law, and deserve equal opportunity to pursue their respective happiness. Likewise, whether or not the only differences between the two genders are cosmetic, it says almost nothing about the individual - as my daughter put it just last night, "Just because [the fastest] men are faster than [the fastest] women doesn't mean that you are faster than a girl just because you are a boy." At best, it's really a sort of red herring in the debate, I think, and a debate that if you engage in it all that much mostly in my opinion shows you aren't that comfortable with notions of masculinity or femininity. At worst, it's taking a false pride in someone else's accomplishments as if they were your own, as if somehow sharing a gender with someone made you heir to the glory and success they had achieved. The truth is, we are more individuals than we are members of a group and more different than we are the same, regardless of whether or not statistical trends can be found within groups, and regardless of the origin of those differences. That's the really important debate in my opinion, that technical questions like whether or not there really are no differences between the two genders ignores.

I say its an important debate, but to me it seems as self-evident as the fact that there are more than just cosmetic differences between the genders. But then, people have never been particularly good at acknowledging even self-evident truths.

In any event, that particular debate is one that gaming is taking part in as part of the larger society it is contained within. The particularly ludicrous debate that is particular to gaming as a culture seems to be on whether one is immoral if the societies one explores do not recognize these obvious truths that so often real world societies have managed to ignore. Regardless of the setting there seems to be an enforced egalitarianism you are required to have, lest it reflect on you somehow and not - for example - on historical realities or present difficulties. Beyond that, I'm starting to think that we are reaching a point where our professions of egalitarianism are really just hiding a deep seated discontent with reality, and borders on a pathological hatred of women. It starts to feel after a while as if we are only comfortable with women, if they are in fact men with only cosmetic differences. It would be like suggesting that the best person at being a woman is a man. And I think that comes back to grounding our sense of worth in the wrong things, like this idea of 'equality', which never was in fact the basis of equality. It's not like if someone is faster or stronger than someone else, that we think they have different worth. Unlike an RPG, in the real world the value of a person is not based on the number of points on their character sheet.

To be perfectly honest, this seems like a false debate, ginned up for the purposes of demonstrating one's virtue, like one of those corner evangelists standing on a milk carton box, screaming at everyone, "Sinners go to hell. Repent now!", not because he is particularly concerned about the individuals he is screaming at, or their particular challenges, or out of any sort of real empathy for them as persons, but because he thinks that doing so is good for his own soul, and earns him brownie points. He's just engaged in a show of community service so that he can say he's a good person, and this comes out in the sort of things that they do and say (and how ineffectual they are at achieving their stated purpose). In the same way, I find these repeated debates have almost no bearing on actual gameplay, and they don't organically come up in play, and they aren't even something that anyone is usually interested in exploring when they sat down to play. I don't think that anyone is making nearly as important of a statement as they think they are making by having this or that sort of game with this or that sort of feature. At best, I think it just signals membership in a particular tribe - much the same way that the soapbox preacher is mostly signaling membership in a tribe - and ironically does so in a way that doesn't reflect well on the tribe.

Is the comic itself sexist? The word is so slippery that I honestly don't know. Why do we have the virile sexually aggressive girl character in the comic anyway? Are virile physically and sexually aggressive females really that 'woke' to include in media normally considered to be targeted mostly at young introverted men, or is it in fact entirely unsurprising to find that sort of characterization? What traditional gender roles are on display in the comic, and should we care? What gaming stereotype is on display in the comic and should we be calling it out as destructive rather than treating it as a joke? And that's not to get into the people that are going to argue that the quote at the top is horrible because it thinks that there are only two genders.

Eh, it doesn't matter much. I don't 'deal' with gender and sexuality. They happen to be things that exist. I deal with them like I deal with cruelty, indifference, charity, justice, fairness, poverty, oppression, ignorance, arrogance, sacrifice, deception, tradition, piety, madness, pain, sickness, death, freedom, birth, subservience, childhood, innocence, bullying, war, tedium, power, struggle, and the thousands of other important elements of the human condition that can make up the background or substance of a story. They just are. That's not the same as ignoring them, it's just rarely am I trying to make a statement about them, and rarer still do I want my players or audience to draw some conclusion about what I actually believe from the substance of a fantasy story. Indeed, that's I think fraught with peril, since in my head the point I might be trying to make might not at all be straight forward given the vast differences reality and the fantasy actually have.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Like I've said before I don't sweat over the details, I don't deal with grandiose ideas and actual big deals in game. So in general I don't put stuff into my games that deals with that stuff unless the players/other players/GM/DM does. I game to game, not to save the world. I just want to be free to portrait a society the way I feel like at the time.
Even if I feel like portraying a truly egalitarian society, it is a truly egalitarian society from my own cultural point of view -how we picture an egalitarian society is different across cultures and even across social strata of the same cultural group-. When I DM the only people that matter are those at the table, no one else.
 

Sexism shouldn't impact PCs. There should not be rules for females with lower Strength, bonuses to "feminine skills" or anything like that. However sexism might be part of a setting. (Perhaps female NPC warriors in some human cultures are rare. Perhaps humans from some cultures are astonished at the lack of sexism among elves. Perhaps among drow male clerics are rare; they are told to "stick to their role" of warriors, rogues, or wizards, and don't get a share in running the city. Unless you're doing a drow campaign, this would have no impact on a drow PC (and seems like a good reason to not to do a drow campaign). Game of Thrones is a good example. Brienne of Tarth is one of the top fighters in the series, beating up members of the Kingsguard, being taller and more muscular than most male characters (the actress, not just the character!) and certainly isn't being treated as weaker or less capable than male rivals... but jerk characters tell her things too horrible to post here.)

In a game I'm currently in, one character is a bisexual cleric of Calistria. Some of his abilities have +1 DC against anyone attracted to him... so the DM will frequently roll for NPC's sexuality. PCs, and NPCs in a plot-relevant relationship don't roll on the chart, however.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Politics, gender, sexuality, ideology all exist in my setting, but unless the players seem actively interested in taking up "social" encounters instead of killing things, these issues are just background noise.
 

Gender only plays a role in my setting in regards to flavor and world building. How one culture views the role of the sexes may differ from another.

For example, I have a culture of pirates in my homebrew setting that worships women as gods (-or being in close connection to the gods). This means female characters are treated very differently by this culture, and it also means that male characters must be mindful to be very respectful towards women when dealing with them. It has been fun watching the players interact with unknown cultures, and adapting to their peculiar beliefs and rules.
 
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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I usually ignore sex and gender (unless somebody else brings it up).
(1) My groups often include teens - and sometimes kids and even a 3-year-old (!) once - who aren't comfortable IRL with much past 'playing kissyface' yet.
(2) In-game, if adventurers are showing up to deal with a problem, then it has already gotten out of hand and all attention must be directed into controlling it; no escapades or side-shows.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
To be perfectly honest, this seems like a false debate, ginned up for the purposes of demonstrating one's virtue, like one of those corner evangelists standing on a milk carton box, screaming at everyone, "Sinners go to hell. Repent now!", not because he is particularly concerned about the individuals he is screaming at, or their particular challenges, or out of any sort of real empathy for them as persons, but because he thinks that doing so is good for his own soul, and earns him brownie points. He's just engaged in a show of community service so that he can say he's a good person, and this comes out in the sort of things that they do and say (and how ineffectual they are at achieving their stated purpose). In the same way, I find these repeated debates have almost no bearing on actual gameplay, and they don't organically come up in play, and they aren't even something that anyone is usually interested in exploring when they sat down to play. I don't think that anyone is making nearly as important of a statement as they think they are making by having this or that sort of game with this or that sort of feature. At best, I think it just signals membership in a particular tribe - much the same way that the soapbox preacher is mostly signaling membership in a tribe - and ironically does so in a way that doesn't reflect well on the tribe.

This is a curious paragraph in the middle of an essay, led by an assertion that gender and sexuality presentation aren't "nearly as relevant as some people think", and concluded with an assertion that "it doesn't matter much". I find it curious because it's an excuse -- a rationalization that's easy to demonstrate.

I've seen the same excuses used by groups that use blatantly sexist tropes in their gaming, with the added point that 'nobody at the table complains about it'. The reason, of course, is that there aren't any women at the table, and the few that were at the table decided quickly that it was far less trouble to simply opt out of the game than to try and deal with the rampant sexism at the table.

What you are saying when you say 'it's not that big a deal' is that it's not that big a deal *for you*, because you personally don't have an affiliation or see the lack of representation as a problem. And, because you can only get so many people at the gaming table with you, it's not uncommon for you to end up at a table that shares your default presumptions. I'm not going to claim that you're 'evil' for having such a game or wrong for choosing to play that way, but your presumptions are only the default for you and those sharing your space.

The problem is that, when those defaults become the presumed assumptions of the *game*, it stops people who don't share those defaults from participating. This has absolutely happened in gaming, and is still happening in some spaces, solely with respect to sexism and sexual harassment -- the most basic of differences from a assumed norm of straight (usually white) male. We've made progress, sure, but we still haven't 'fixed' the basic stereotypical straight dude reaction of "ooh, cooties!" or "oh, stick close to me, sweetheart, and I'll explain everything," so it seems a bit premature to claim that more complex variations of this theme simply aren't a problem worth addressing, and that anyone who claims that it is is simply trying to send a signal.

You may not think it's a big deal, but the companies that make these games, who are looking to increase their player base (and thus their revenues) do see this establishment of defaults as a problem and have taken steps to be more inclusive. Many people see this as a good thing -- it's part of why conventions like GenCon are booming, why new conventions are springing up to meet the increased demand, and why tabletop gaming is starting to exit the 'only for nerds' era and is becoming acceptable for folks of all walks and stages of life to participate in.

Except...

There are people out there for whom attempts at increasing diversity are a problem. Maybe they learned gaming at a young age and see it as a refuge for nerdy white dudes like themselves to vent about the frustrations of the world, and including women and minorities (both racial and gender) threatens their sense of having their own safe space, because women and minorities are some of the things they want to vent about. Maybe they just don't like women and minorities and want to hold them at arm's length in one clearly defined area of their lives. Maybe they're just dumb.

These bad people are a problem, but their beliefs really only hurt themselves and their games, because most folks in charge have learned to ignore those sorts of complaints in favor of the benefits of inclusiveness. The bigger problem is not those people -- it's the people who claim that inclusiveness isn't a problem we should be worrying about, because the people who claim inclusiveness isn't a problem give the truly bad people cover. You may be trying to say "why are we arguing about this when there are games to be played?", but what you are actually saying is "this is not a problem I feel is worth fixing, so why bother engaging?" You're basically dismissing attempts to fix these longstanding problems in tabletop gaming, despite the clear evidence that having game companies champion diversity is actually part of the fix for the longstanding problem of not having women, people of color, or non-standard gendered folks being treated equally at the table or in the industry.

So sure, if you don't feel that's a big enough deal to get involved in, then go ahead and sit it out. If you don't want to be a champion, that's fine. You don't even need to be an ally. But you do need to realize that your assertion that "it's not that big a deal" is not a neutral stance -- it is used as cover by those who want to keep gaming an exclusive club of barely-washed straight white dudes, and who are not interested in putting together better games or more interesting games, just games where they and their presumptions and defaults can assume their own superiority.

So maybe don't do that.

--
Pauper
 

Celebrim

Legend
This is a curious paragraph in the middle of an essay, led by an assertion that gender and sexuality presentation aren't "nearly as relevant as some people think"...

I'm going to stop there because since you've just outted yourself as having insufficient reading comprehension to understand what you read, that there is not much point in addressing the rest of your post either. I don't appreciate being misquoted in such a blatant fashion, but I in no fashion said "gender and sexuality presentation aren't nearly as relevant as some people think".

Correct that statement, and retract your post, and I'll consider whether there are any other concerns you've raised worth discussing, or whether you are just rationalizing yourself into a self-comforting fill in the blanks rant that you have probably typed before. But in the mean time, you've been rude to the point of me not caring what you think.
 
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Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
I don't appreciate being misquoted in such a blatant fashion, but I in no fashion said "gender and sexuality presentation aren't nearly as relevant as some people think".

I am quoting you verbatim. You said:

"I also don't think it is nearly as relevant as some people think it is, as I don't think whether or not the only differences between the genders are cosmetic matters much."

The follow-on phrase makes it clear that the 'it' you are referring to is the original poster's quote about the only game differences between genders being cosmetic. Expression within a game's mechanics, including whether or not those expressions are purely cosmetic, is a presentation of gender and sexuality -- if it wasn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as the entire point of 'inclusiveness' is to present expressions of gender and sexuality that people who don't fit the assumed social 'default' can identify and identify with. You appear to believe those presentations "aren't nearly as relevant as some people think." If this is not your belief, please say so, in so many words.

And I explained that reference without once denigrating your reading comprehension skills! Some might call that being respectful....

I find your argument that the distinctions made for inclusiveness, including these cosmetic differences...again quoting you..."seems like a false debate, ginned up for the purposes of demonstrating one's virtue" is curious, because to say that the distinctions between genders are not "nearly as relevant as some people think it is" and the follow-up that the result "seems like a false debate" is exactly what I was referring to in my post as being, not a statement of neutrality, but a statement that the truly bad actors in tabletop gaming can use as a shield for their own reprehensible behavior.

Correct that statement, and retract your post, and I'll consider whether there are any other concerns you've raised worth discussing

Considering that I quoted you accurately, and have now clarified my statement, I see no reason to retract my post -- if anything, your response shows why my post is valid, because it highlights that your statement is not politically neutral, but useful to a specific side in the debate. If it's not the side you want to be associated with, I imagine that's a problem you need to work out.

But in the mean time, you've been rude to the point of me not caring what you think.

I think you do care, otherwise you wouldn't have taken the time to respond. Thanks for the consideration.

--
Pauper
 

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