[5e] Newbie DM Questions about Information Given

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
1) During my first session, the players met a dwarf merchant on the road whose cart had been attacked and broken by a beast, and gave a poor description of the beast. My players wanted to roll a Nature check to see if they could get more information about the beast, and with a roll of 16, I gave them more information without telling them exactly what it was, in part because the dwarf describing the beast didn't have much knowledge of what it was. (It was an Auroch). How much should the quality of the NPC's description weigh into the information gained from a nature roll?

What you absolutely don't want to support is all the players rolling for a check. If you forget to ask for the approach (as Iserith suggests above) then your players will assume that all that's necessary is a roll of the dice and (given the odds) someone in the group will roll higher enough to beat most DCs.

The approach allows you to determine whether there is any chance of success in the characters action. It also gives the player a chance to be creative with the situation or their character or both.

Having a goal is important but having an approach that can be adjudicated is critical.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Having a goal is important but having an approach that can be adjudicated is critical.

Right. Not only does this make the DM's role easier since he or she can quickly determine success, failure, or the need for an ability check (and which kind of of check), it makes it so the DM can't establish what the character is doing. And, frankly, the player is required to do this. It's his or her role in the game! Make them work for it. :)
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I'm a newish DM who's run a few oneshots but recently started his first campaign, and I ended up with a couple things that came up in my first session and my planning for my second that I wasn't exactly sure what information to give my players. My current players are a lot more investigative than the ones I've had before, and I want to let them explore a bit without outright giving away answers but also without being misleading.

1) During my first session, the players met a dwarf merchant on the road whose cart had been attacked and broken by a beast, and gave a poor description of the beast. My players wanted to roll a Nature check to see if they could get more information about the beast, and with a roll of 16, I gave them more information without telling them exactly what it was, in part because the dwarf describing the beast didn't have much knowledge of what it was. (It was an Auroch). How much should the quality of the NPC's description weigh into the information gained from a nature roll

I agree with those that suggest being as generous as possible with giving out information - otherwise it's just wasted. Does anyone in the party have proficiency with painter's tools? If they do this can be turned into a police sketch scenario, trying to elicit the best info from the dwarf - which may provide even better info.

If not, As I said I prefer giving info to withholding it and a nature check of 16 - even with a clueless witness should provide something. In this situation, I think you should have the nature check be made at disadvantage - that should be enough of a penalty to account for the clueless witness.

Since the check is already made though, I'd just give them good info and move on.

2) My players stumbled across a clearing where a Green Hag and some Pixies had been the previous day, and my party's Warlock cast detect magic. I described the magic residue he found as being arcane magic, but I'm not entirely sure how to determine which type of magic to tell the party when they cast detect magic on an area. Is there a helpful summary somewhere of the different possible results of a detect magic ritual and how to easily distinguish what information I should give my players?

Per RAW, you just tell them the school of magic detected. You can be more specific if the situation calls for it.

3) With the point our first session ended, our party is about to stumble onto a battle-scene where the battle has already ended several days ago, and one side in the battle had ogre zombies and elf zombies, among other things. When my party inspects the battle scene, should they be able to tell that these had been zombies, or should they simply see ogre corpses and elf corpses?

I think they should be able to tell zombies from regular skeletons through various means. Healing check, knowledge check etc. Zombies should be distinguishable from other recently killed bodies.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
"Knowledge checks" are a nebulous area of the game that DMs handle in a variety of ways. IME players often lean on them as a crutch to passively gain as much info as possible with minimal investment. It's up to the DM to help guide players away from that habit.

That's one way to look at it.

Another is to consider that the characters live in the world 24/7, and the players do not, and those checks are the mechanical bridge between the two. Before we consider that they are "leaning on a crutch" we should consider the following:

1) We, as GMs, are probably not as great at writing mysteries as we think,
2) We, as GMs, may not be providing proper avenues for active investigation, as we typically give them far less information describing the world than we think.
3) The players are (usually) not trained investigators any more than they are trained sword-fighters, and we should not assume they know how to approach active investigation.

The mechanic gives us a clean way around all three of these.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
A lot of good info being shared in this thread. Just want to add a few observations of my own.

1) During my first session, the players met a dwarf merchant on the road whose cart had been attacked and broken by a beast, and gave a poor description of the beast.

This is a cool interaction, but it creates an odd tension at most game tables.

In RPGs, you can imagine the text of the adventure as 'what's really going on', or as a sort of Platonic reality underlying the descriptions being given to the players. One thing that players will assume, especially when making skill checks to learn information, is that a successful check basically gives them information explicitly related to that underlying reality of the adventure.

But what if the information the characters have available to them is flawed in some way? If the dwarf had never seen an auroch before, perhaps it was describing a different creature it was familiar with, but trying to distinguish that it wasn't really that creature. Does a successful check reveal clues about the actual creature, or about the creature the dwarf is actually describing?

This kind of goes back to Robus and Iserith's discussion about determining just what it is that a skill check will do in the game -- but with the added wrinkle that you might not actually be giving out the information that your players' metagame knowledge is assuming you're giving out. To balance this, try to be explicit about what information you are providing ("What the dwarf describes sounds to you like an Underdark creature, but he seems adamant that such a creature could not exist above ground.")

I agree with Umbran that players and GMs are not necessarily great at conducting investigation scenes, and erring on the side of giving out more information can be helpful in keeping the adventure moving. But agreeing with that doesn't mean that players are justified in believing that a high enough die roll lets them effectively read your adventure notes -- you as GM have to decide what information is available, and how, and then adapt to how your players react to the information they receive as they try to interpret it.

2) My players stumbled across a clearing where a Green Hag and some Pixies had been the previous day, and my party's Warlock cast detect magic. I described the magic residue he found as being arcane magic, but I'm not entirely sure how to determine which type of magic to tell the party when they cast detect magic on an area.

Here's an area where deciding what information is available can be of help -- the idea of 'types of magic' in terms of spell schools really only applies to spells, not to magical creatures. Yet the creature type (fey, undead, fiend, etc.) can make for a decent alternative to a spell school. It seems to me that describing the residue your warlock found as 'a strange mix of light and dark fey-like energies' gives just as much useful information, if not more useful info, then trying to figure out if a green hag has a different spell school than a pixie. You can 'gate' this information behind an Arcana check if you like, with the idea that the Warlock wouldn't have even gotten the check without the spell, or you can rule that the warlock could have attempted an Arcana check without the spell simply by examining the residue, but that the spell simply obviates the need for a check.

This kind of simulates a mechanic from the GUMSHOE system that I rather like for this sort of thing; skills in GUMSHOE also grant a 'pool' of investigation points, which can be spent on a check rather than rolling a die. The more points are spent, the more information is found, up to the maximum the GM decides is available from that information source. Similarly, in D&D and similar games, spells or other expendable resources can be considered a 'pool' of sorts -- expending a spell slot is a much more significant indicator of effort than simply requesting a skill check, so more information should be available, if the spell is one that would be useful in the investigation. (Note that this also opens up the possibility that a detect magic ritual is not as effective in an investigation as the actual spell, since the ritual doesn't reflect a similar expenditure of resources. Some will balk at this, as the D&D rules don't make a distinction between using a spell as a ritual and not, so if you do plan to do this, probably run it by your players first so they're aware of when they might be able to get more information from an actual spellcast rather than a ritual cast.)

3) With the point our first session ended, our party is about to stumble onto a battle-scene where the battle has already ended several days ago, and one side in the battle had ogre zombies and elf zombies, among other things. When my party inspects the battle scene, should they be able to tell that these had been zombies, or should they simply see ogre corpses and elf corpses?

Again, I'd say it depends how much they investigate. If they simply pass over the battlefield, the corpses might not look all that different, especially if there were actual ogres or elves fighting as well as the zombies. Should they stop to investigate, there are already plenty of good examples in the thread above about the kinds of information you can provide, based on character background, proficiency in Medicine, or whatever other character feature seems relevant to you, including a skill check.

The main thing to keep in mind, though, is that if a piece of information is really significant, in that without it the group doesn't know how to continue the adventure, that piece of information should be as easy for the characters to discover as possible. Information that's simply 'good to know' or that makes the character's jobs easier can be more challenging to discover, as the challenge justifies the reward of the additional lore or the easier time in the upcoming combat.

--
Pauper
 

1. You get to decide this. The dwarf had never seen one before, if he was also terrified by the attack then his description will be horrible. Now if the creatures are fairly common to the area in your campaign then bad description or not a Nature roll of 16 should mean the party should have a pretty good idea from footprints, etc.

2. Type of magic and possibly how long ago it was cast is what I would give.

3. With a good nature roll or the right questions they may notice that some corpses seem much more rotted than others and/or bled a lot less.


One question you may want to ask yourself is if the party likes to be investigative like this then do you want their rolls to decide everything, their questions, or a mix of both. Players like this may want to be rewarded for having clever thoughts and ideas and not just because they pumped up their Investigate skill and roll well.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I want to let them explore a bit without outright giving away answers but also without being misleading.
Oh, go right ahead and be misleading... ;)

During my first session, the players met a dwarf merchant on the road whose cart had been attacked and broken by a beast, and gave a poor description of the beast. My players wanted to roll a Nature check to see if they could get more information about the beast, and with a roll of 16, I gave them more information without telling them exactly what it was, in part because the dwarf describing the beast didn't have much knowledge of what it was. (It was an Auroch). How much should the quality of the NPC's description weigh into the information gained from a nature roll?
Ideally, you shouldn't let players ask to make rolls, they should describe actions ("Do I remember seeing or hearing about a creature like that from my time with the Rangers of the North..." could be an 'action' in the sense you're trying to match the description to your own knowledge & experience) and you call for checks based on the action and the circumstances (which you, as DM necessarily know more about than the players).

You might have a few possible creatures that could fit the description already picked out, and, for no check or a poor one, present them as possibilities. With a good check you could explain that the character eliminated one or more possiblity because of habbitat or behavior or whatever - going into as much detail as you think might be interesting.

My players stumbled across a clearing where a Green Hag and some Pixies had been the previous day, and my party's Warlock cast detect magic. I described the magic residue he found as being arcane magic, but I'm not entirely sure how to determine which type of magic to tell the party when they cast detect magic on an area.
What were they /doing/ there? If they weren't actually working any magic nothing more might be appropriate, if they'd just come back from the feywild, maybe some lingering Conjuration...

With the point our first session ended, our party is about to stumble onto a battle-scene where the battle has already ended several days ago, and one side in the battle had ogre zombies and elf zombies, among other things. When my party inspects the battle scene, should they be able to tell that these had been zombies, or should they simply see ogre corpses and elf corpses?
I'd think zombies would appear to have been dead longer than the other corpses, and show a lot of post-mortem wounds. So there was a battle here between living troops and zombies is a reasonable supposition. And, that Detect Magic should pick up lingering Necromancy.

Of course, I suppose one could conclude that there had been a battle between ogres and elves, and, some time later, a third force had come along and mutilated the corpses....
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
This kind of simulates a mechanic from the GUMSHOE system that I rather like for this sort of thing; skills in GUMSHOE also grant a 'pool' of investigation points, which can be spent on a check rather than rolling a die. The more points are spent, the more information is found, up to the maximum the GM decides is available from that information source.

Well, let's discuss that mechanic more, for a moment.

GUMSHOE doesn't have skill checks for Investigative skills. Technically, you don't need to roll any dice to get all the clues you need in a GUMSHOE game.

In GUMSHOE, if you have the relevant investigative skill *at all*, you automatically get the base information available for that skill in that scene. No check or spend is required.

You have points you can spend, to get more information, if it exists. But that information is not *necessary* to solve the mystery. It is extra, makes interpreting the other clues easier, but is not supposed to be strictly necessary to solve the mystery.

You could use spells or the like to mimic this skill spend from GUMSHOE, but be careful. In GUMSHOE, the General skills used in combat and the Investigative skills used for sleuthing do not overlap. In D&D, the spell slots you are using to investigate are spell slots you won't have if a combat starts. It is a much more difficult resource management problem than the GUMSHOE variety.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Well, let's discuss that mechanic more, for a moment.

Let's! Caveat: My main exposure to GUMSHOE has been through Fall of Delta Green, so I'm no expert. But I do feel as though I have a handle on how that game handles the system. If the 'core game' handles things differently, I'm going to be off on my comments.

GUMSHOE doesn't have skill checks for Investigative skills. Technically, you don't need to roll any dice to get all the clues you need in a GUMSHOE game.

Agreed. But see below.

You have points you can spend, to get more information, if it exists. But that information is not *necessary* to solve the mystery. It is extra, makes interpreting the other clues easier, but is not supposed to be strictly necessary to solve the mystery.

I've seen that too -- the idea that the GM/Handler/Keeper should provide all the information necessary to solve the mystery to the player whose character has the relevant Investigative skill.

However, in play, I suspect the 'spend' mechanic is to combat the 'parser problem'. For the benefit of those who weren't around during the Golden Age of Infocom, when CRPGs used to be text-based or point-and-click adventure games, there would inevitably be points in an adventure when you as a player couldn't advance in the story because, even though you had a pretty good idea of what you needed to do to advance the story, you couldn't figure out how to communicate that to the game. For text-based games, you entered commands, and the game's parser interpreted those to determine what information to give you or when to move you to the next stage of the game. But if the parser was looking for a specific command -- 'combine torch with oily rags', for example -- sometimes the game wouldn't recognize similar but seemingly equivalent statements -- 'light oily rags on fire' or 'combine rags with torch' -- and you'd be stuck.

My read on the 'spend' mechanic in GUMSHOE is that it's basically a built-in hint system to let players get extra information if the info they get, which is intended to be 'enough', isn't enough to allow them to figure out what the GM/adventure is trying to get them to figure out.

You could use spells or the like to mimic this skill spend from GUMSHOE, but be careful. In GUMSHOE, the General skills used in combat and the Investigative skills used for sleuthing do not overlap. In D&D, the spell slots you are using to investigate are spell slots you won't have if a combat starts. It is a much more difficult resource management problem than the GUMSHOE variety.

I'm going to disagree slightly on that -- unless Fall of Delta Green is an outlier in the GUMSHOE system, characters generally won't have more than 3 points in an Investigative skill to spend on bonus information. so while it's true that Info spends don't detract from a character's combat ability, it's also true that, for a given Investigative skill, the number of points the character has is only really good for two, maybe three spends in an investigation. Granted, other skills provide their own pool points, and the base skill is always useful to get the baseline of required information, so exhausting one Investigation pool isn't likely to derail an adventure, but the pool is a resource, and part of the challenge of a GUMSHOE game is to manage that resource just as D&D players manage their characters' hit dice and spell slots.

Unless you're talking about a very low-level PC in D&D 5E, though, characters have plenty of spell slots to spend on both utility/investigative magic as well as combat (this is especially true when you notice that many players will use their characters' cantrips as the standard tool for combat, resorting to spells only when they need to up the ante), not to mention (as in GUMSHOE, where character creation actually obligates the party having all the Investigative skills before embarking on adventures) that other characters may have their own spell slots to contribute. But, if you do find this a possible source of conflict, then one solution seems obvious -- go ahead and use D&D's ritual casting mechanic as the 'you have the appropriate skill, here's the information you need', and casting the actual spell using a spell slot as the 'you spent points from your Investigation pool, here's the extra information you get' mechanics from GUMSHOE. (As noted in my earlier comment, some players may balk at this, as there isn't support in the D&D rules to treat ritual spells any differently when cast as a ritual versus being cast from a spell slot, so run that by your players before implementing it in your game.)

You're right in that resource exhaustion making a character or party less prepared in combat is something to keep track of if you want to use spell slots as a GUMSHOE-like Investigation pool, but I don't see it as an insurmountable problem. If anything, it gives higher-level spellcasters something to do with their lower-level spell slots.

--
Pauper
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Let's! Caveat: My main exposure to GUMSHOE has been through Fall of Delta Green, so I'm no expert. But I do feel as though I have a handle on how that game handles the system. If the 'core game' handles things differently, I'm going to be off on my comments.

The main game I am GMing at the moment is Ashen Stars.

However, in play, I suspect the 'spend' mechanic is to combat the 'parser problem'.

Typically not, and here's why:

In the parser problem, you have a bunch of pieces, and you have issues trying to figure out how they go together.

The point in GUMSHOE investigation where you make spends is *as you gather* the pieces. You don't generally get to retroactively spend the points later to get more information to help you put things together. So, the spend gets you more information, and that information is supposed to be helpful. But if you make it necessary to spend the resources to get the required information, in terms of adventure design you are working contrary to the intended game design.

GUMSHOE works on the premise that finding the clues is far less interesting than interpreting and acting on the clues. Getting the clues is supposed to be the easy bit.


I'm going to disagree slightly on that -- unless Fall of Delta Green is an outlier in the GUMSHOE system, characters generally won't have more than 3 points in an Investigative skill to spend on bonus information. so while it's true that Info spends don't detract from a character's combat ability, it's also true that, for a given Investigative skill, the number of points the character has is only really good for two, maybe three spends in an investigation.

That's pretty much correct for Ashen Stars and Timewatch, so I'll call it mostly correct (there are a couple of edge cases, but I think we can set them aside).

Granted, other skills provide their own pool points, and the base skill is always useful to get the baseline of required information, so exhausting one Investigation pool isn't likely to derail an adventure, but the pool is a resource, and part of the challenge of a GUMSHOE game is to manage that resource just as D&D players manage their characters' hit dice and spell slots.

My point is that, as a GM, when you get to the combat scene, you don't have to worry about how many investigative points the players have spent. They are separate resources that don't generally mix. They are separate game balances.

Unless you're talking about a very low-level PC in D&D 5E, though, characters have plenty of spell slots to spend on both utility/investigative magic as well as combat

Well, that's going to depend on how much you are challenging the players in combat, now isn't it? Sure, if you are softballing them, and they never use all their spell slots in combat, this isn't an issue. But, if you are pushing them harder, they may not have the resources to spend. In this situation, if you introduce this mechanic without backing off on the combat challenge, they will either not use the mechanic, or have a harder time in the fights.

You're right in that resource exhaustion making a character or party less prepared in combat is something to keep track of if you want to use spell slots as a GUMSHOE-like Investigation pool, but I don't see it as an insurmountable problem. If anything, it gives higher-level spellcasters something to do with their lower-level spell slots.

Which is why I said, "be careful." Not, "Don't do this." Not, "This is a horrible idea." I most certainly did not say, "This is an insurmountable problem." I said, "be careful."

So... you're kind of strawmanning me, here. You say you're disagreeing with me, but you come to the same conclusion, which is a little odd.
 

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