Multi classing Objections: Rules vs. Fluff?

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That didn't make it a bad game. I had quite a bit of fun playing my supernaturally talented (again, not Supernatural(TM)) fighter for quite a while. But he never felt like my 3E fighter. He lived in a cartoon/anime/superhero universe where all heroes could do things that weren't physically possible, even accounting for the simplified representation of the universe required by a game. It bugs me that people won't accept that in my opinion, no amount of fluff could justify that without magic supernatural mystical* abilities he could not have done much of what he did encounter after encounter.
Eh, I still think you're wildly overstating the case. I guarantee you I could build a heroic-tier fighter, or rogue, or ranger that does nothing but hit people with a sword, occasionally for extra damage or maybe knocking somebody down. Blinding Barrage and Come and Get It don't make the 4e fighter or rogue mystical anymore than Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster do for the 5e fighter or rogue.
 

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Oofta

Legend
Eh, I still think you're wildly overstating the case. I guarantee you I could build a heroic-tier fighter, or rogue, or ranger that does nothing but hit people with a sword, occasionally for extra damage or maybe knocking somebody down. Blinding Barrage and Come and Get It don't make the 4e fighter or rogue mystical anymore than Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster do for the 5e fighter or rogue.

My wife practically burned our 4E books as a sacrificial offering to the gaming gods, so I can neither confirm nor deny your statement. I don't remember having the option to do a mundane fighter build until essentials came out. Several of my friends and I were disappointed at the time that we couldn't build a truly mundane fighter or rogue with the initial release of books.

I guess I could have just ignored several of my encounter and daily powers, but that would have been silly. Honestly I don't care any more, it was years ago and I've moved on.
 

cmad1977

Hero
My wife practically burned our 4E books as a sacrificial offering to the gaming gods, so I can neither confirm nor deny your statement. I don't remember having the option to do a mundane fighter build until essentials came out. Several of my friends and I were disappointed at the time that we couldn't build a truly mundane fighter or rogue with the initial release of books.

I guess I could have just ignored several of my encounter and daily powers, but that would have been silly. Honestly I don't care any more, it was years ago and I've moved on.

A wise woman. Clearly the Gods accepted her sacrifice.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I guess I could have just ignored several of my encounter and daily powers, but that would have been silly. Honestly I don't care any more, it was years ago and I've moved on.
While I know you've moved on and have no further interest, just for the edification of the audience:

E1 - Spinning Sweep - damage and knock prone
D1 - Brute Strike - damage
U2 - No Opening - Cancel combat advantage against you
E3 - Precise Strike - damage
D5 - Dizzying Blow - damage and immobilize
U6 - Battle Awareness - bonus to initiative
E7 - Reckless Strike - damage
D9 - Victorious Surge - damage, small heal
U10 - Into the Fray - extra move

Unless a fighter doing a small heal is supernatural/mystical (a la Second Wind), or dailies/encounters are supernatural/mystical, pretty easy to make a pretty mundane fighter.
 

Oofta

Legend
While I know you've moved on and have no further interest, just for the edification of the audience:

E1 - Spinning Sweep - damage and knock prone
D1 - Brute Strike - damage
U2 - No Opening - Cancel combat advantage against you
E3 - Precise Strike - damage
D5 - Dizzying Blow - damage and immobilize
U6 - Battle Awareness - bonus to initiative
E7 - Reckless Strike - damage
D9 - Victorious Surge - damage, small heal
U10 - Into the Fray - extra move

Unless a fighter doing a small heal is supernatural/mystical (a la Second Wind), or dailies/encounters are supernatural/mystical, pretty easy to make a pretty mundane fighter.

Perhaps. Like I said, I no longer have access to my books. But the very concept of encounter and daily powers as limited abilities is one of the things that, to many people, meant you couldn't be a truly mundane fighter.

Yes you could add fluff that says "you can't do X because you've already pulled that trick once and now they're expecting it". Bit of a stretch, but okay. But then you hit a completely different group of people who didn't see you do X. So instead you say, "you only have enough energy to do that once in a while" which to me was even worse. How much "energy" does it take to distract an enemy so I could run past without provoking? The fluff fell apart like the tissue-paper-thin cover that it was. We all just shrugged and admitted we were all using magic*, no matter what the labels said.

That doesn't make it a good or bad game mechanic. It just meant that no amount of fluff could change it's nature or the feel that it left with many people. It's one of the reasons I'll probably never play a battlemaster. Either you're powered by some supernatural/mystical force or not.

Last, but not least, unlike my wife I didn't hate 4E by the end of it's run. I had decided that I preferred a 3.5/Pathfinder approach. I like 5E even more. I'm hardly alone with that sentiment. Of course this is all just, like, an opinion man.

Good gaming, and can we stop debating a dead game version now?

*Disclaimer: "magic" as in the common non-gamer-speak definition, not Magic(TM) as defined in the rules.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Perhaps. Like I said, I no longer have access to my books. But the very concept of encounter and daily powers as limited abilities is one of the things that, to many people, meant you couldn't be a truly mundane fighter.
<shrug> You can narrate limited powers via metagame, or as mystical in-narration. Plenty of people hate metagame powers more than they hate mystical fighters, so there we are. But deciding to use a mystical reference to cover up a lack of desire to use metagame mechanics doesn't mean the game has magical fighters, that's all.

Good gaming, and can we stop debating a dead game version now?
I guess you've never been to Dragonsfoot. :)
 

Oofta

Legend
<shrug> You can narrate limited powers via metagame, or as mystical in-narration. Plenty of people hate metagame powers more than they hate mystical fighters, so there we are. But deciding to use a mystical reference to cover up a lack of desire to use metagame mechanics doesn't mean the game has magical fighters, that's all.

I think it's partly a perspective issue. Is D&D a game first? Or a rough simulation of a world where things should things make sense from the perspective of the PCs? How would I explain encounter and daily powers if I were to ride a magic roller coaster that put me in conflicts with Venger? The PCs don't pull out their glowing cards so that they can do X encounter power like some cartoons. For me, it broke any sense of immersion in the story.

There are certainly meta-game aspects that will always mess with that perspective, it's not practical to avoid it. But 4E shoved it in your face and said "neener-neener, these encounter and daily powers are martial powers because we say they are!"
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
While I know you've moved on and have no further interest, just for the edification of the audience:

E1 - Spinning Sweep - damage and knock prone
D1 - Brute Strike - damage
U2 - No Opening - Cancel combat advantage against you
E3 - Precise Strike - damage
D5 - Dizzying Blow - damage and immobilize
U6 - Battle Awareness - bonus to initiative
E7 - Reckless Strike - damage
D9 - Victorious Surge - damage, small heal
U10 - Into the Fray - extra move

Unless a fighter doing a small heal is supernatural/mystical (a la Second Wind), or dailies/encounters are supernatural/mystical, pretty easy to make a pretty mundane fighter.

If you're willing to tweak a bit, you could even make a 'default simple fighter' progression (or one for each of the two builds in the PH, say), using the Essentials "Power Strike" Encounter in place of all Encounters and a similar scaling daily (maybe based on Brute Strike for the Greatweapon, and Comeback Strike for the S&B Guardian) in place of all dailies (Feats & Utilities could also be pre-picked). Players wanting to ease into the game via the traditional fighter-as-training-wheels-class could just play that (only one build decision, S&B or two-hander), but if they ever got bored with it, start retraining the default choices for others that interested them and fit their concept of the character as it evolved.

You wouldn't want do that with all classes, but maybe one of each role: Fighter, Rogue, Cleric... OK, each role other than controller, "Simple Controller" is just an oxymoron... ;)

I think it's partly a perspective issue. Is D&D a game first?
To be fair, D&D is an RPG, first*/last/always. There's been a pointless 'debate' whether RPGs are primarily about Playing a Game (D&D? Bad ROLLplayer!! No XP! GRR!), or primarily about Playing a Role (Storyteller? Yay! ROLEplayers! We're the best!), for, well over 20 years now, but the bottom line is: all RPGs are about both Playing a Game and Playing a Role, neither comes 'first,' though any given player at any given moment, might slide more into one than the other.
And that's fine and should be at least tolerated by all involved.

Or a rough simulation of a world
Some RPGs are set in a real world historical period, and thus do have something to simulate in the literal sense. Most others "simulate" ('emulate' or 'evoke' would be better words, IMHO), a fictional setting or genre. But, that's not a defining quality of an RPG - wargames engage in a lot of historical simulation, boardgames & computer games (& even arcade games) can be based on and 'simulate' a genre, or reality (Flight Simulators, for instance) - and certainly shouldn't be what an RPG is viewed as "first."











* OK, maybe, briefly, initially, a wargame.
 
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Oofta

Legend
To be fair, D&D is an RPG, first*/last/always. There's been a pointless 'debate' whether RPGs are primarily about Playing a Game (D&D? Bad ROLLplayer!! No XP! GRR!), or primarily about Playing a Role (Storyteller? Yay! ROLEplayers! We're the best!), for, well over 20 years now, but the bottom line is: all RPGs are about both Playing a Game and Playing a Role, neither comes 'first,' though any given player at any given moment, might slide more into one than the other.
And that's fine and should be at least tolerated by all involved.

Some RPGs are set in a real world historical period, and thus do have something to simulate in the literal sense. Most others "simulate" ('emulate' or 'evoke' would be better words, IMHO), a fictional setting or genre. But, that's not a defining quality of an RPG - wargames engage in a lot of historical simulation, boardgames & computer games (& even arcade games) can be based on and 'simulate' a genre, or reality (Flight Simulators, for instance) - and certainly shouldn't be what an RPG is viewed as "first."











* OK, maybe, briefly, initially, a wargame.

One thing many people objected to was that 4E forced the meta-game too much. If they had come up with some other mechanic, maybe it would have been better. For example, if a fighter had stamina points and powers required so much stamina to use it would have been more palatable.

But powers were structured like spells, were "expended" like spells, in most cases had mystical effects. Until essentials came out there wasn't really an option - just what felt like variations of the same chassis with different labels. Obviously that didn't bother everyone.

I grew up with the vision of a fantasy world being one based on Tolkien, Leiber and Howard not MMOs. Heroes in those stories may have gotten tired now and then, but they didn't need cool-down periods before they could do some cool trick again. That cool trick may have only been possible under certain circumstances but if they weren't exhausted and the circumstances were met again they could do it all day long.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
One thing many people objected to was that 4E forced the meta-game too much.
I don't feel that's quite right. A meta-game is a game about the game - chargen/level-up CharOp is a meta-game, for instance, one you could 'win' before play even began. Imbalanced games generate meta-games that leverage (or, for that matter evade or correct) their imbalances, but even they don't quite 'force' them - incentivize them heavily the more profound the imbalance, sure, but not actually force them. 4e wasn't as imbalanced as other eds, so it's CharOp meta-game wasn't as incentivized, but it was certainly still present, and could still be fun.

4e was written in a clearer, more precise, jargon-filled technical-manual sort of way. It's play procedures were prettymuch naked in the harsh light of day. The lack of obfuscation might make it seem "more gamist" (itself a pretty absurd idea - "Waiter, my hamburger is too beefist!"), and I recall the "seeing the wires" complaint ringing true at the time. But, again, it's not forced, merely presented, and I don't think metagame is the right label, it's just the actual game, really.

Yes you could add fluff that says "you can't do X because you've already pulled that trick once and now they're expecting it". Bit of a stretch, but okay. But then you hit a completely different group of people who didn't see you do X.
Not, it makes a good rationale for a literal "encounter" power rather than a short-rest-recharge (which is what encounter powers actually were, and which 5e retains, even if 'short' is an hour).
So instead you say, "you only have enough energy to do that once in a while"
That works better for dailies, though it'd've worked even better if the mechanic were 'spend a surge' to use the power, rather than 1/day, but...
If they had come up with some other mechanic, maybe it would have been better. For example, if a fighter had stamina points and powers required so much stamina to use it would have been more palatable.
Nod. That'd be closely analogous to a 'spell point' mechanic - and those mechanics definitely had issues of their own - actually, more closely analogous to spell points than AEDU was to Vancian. ...hm...

One thing about the 4e approach is that it kept individual choices fewer and simpler than with casters in prior eds. When you leveled, if you got a new power, you chose from a relatively short list - there might be three, maybe 6, powers for your class & level to choose from in the PH, once you chose it, it was locked in until you retrained it (also something you did once/level). Compared to dead levels for some classes and far more involved choices every level (or two) for others, that's actually not so bad... for a new player, playing a character up from 1st, even pretty good. That consolidation & simplification, though, came at the price of making it less familiar, so, more overt.

When the "seeing the wires" presentation also made the system feel more overtly "in your face."

But powers were structured like spells, were "expended" like spells, in most cases had mystical effects. Obviously that didn't bother everyone.
Technically spells were structured like powers, powers, really /were/ a structure, a stat block for abilities (Class, Race, PC, NPC, Monster, & Magic Item - all used the power block format - another instance of consolidation that simplified the game relative to it's more complicated versions).
4e powers were not like traditional D&D spells: they weren't 'prepared' (well, except for the Wizards dailies & utilities, but they /were/ spells), weren't all daily, weren't organized in levels different from the levels at which you acquired them, you couldn't easily just take the same power twice (or more), you couldn't prep them (again, 'cept the Wizard's actual spells), nor cast them spontaneously, etc...

So, no, they were not structured like spells. It's an understandable misconception when coming from past editions, though, because of the limited-usage mechanic of daily powers, and because the power structure did have to handle spells. But, it's like saying that a 1e Two-handed sword was structured like an ability score, because you rolled it's damage vs L sized creatures on 3d6 - just focusing on one common point (in that case, wholly coincidental, of course).

Until essentials came out there wasn't really an option - just what felt like variations of the same chassis with different labels.
It may have felt, to you, like that, but it really wasn't - objectively, there was a lot more than labels (fluff) plugged into that chassis to make each class different, and, indeed, unique to a greater degree than before or since (in all other editions, casters use the same block-format and similar progressions for their spells, /and share many of the exact same spells/ on top of being able to prep or spontaneously spam the 'best' spells repeatedly, it created a much greater risk of 'sameyness' from caster to caster - and non-casters had virtually nothing to differentiate them from other members of the same class, until they got a cool magic item, anyway).
Again, it seems like a conflict between impressions formed in past experiences with new (at the time) the realities of a somewhat different system. I mean, D&D remained virtually unchanged for the first 25 years, and the next 8 after that 3.5 barely disturbed the sacred cows' meadow - then, 4e came through like Texas Chainsaw Sacred Cow Massacre. You're left going "were are all the cows...?" "Where's the Vancian Holstien?' "...hey, that cat & that Dalmatian over there are both black & white, they must be the Holstien..." "waitaminit, that zebra's black-and-white, too! ...So's the penguin! ...and the Killer Whale" "XOMG! they're all Holstiens!?!" "THEY'RE EXACTLY THE SAME!!! YOU'RE TEARING ME APPART!!!!!!"

I grew up with the vision of a fantasy world being one based on Tolkien, Leiber and Howard
But you adapted to D&D in spite of that!
Heroes in those stories may have gotten tired now and then, but they didn't need cool-down periods before they could do some cool trick again.
Yeah, including the spellcasters! Gandalf, Sheelba or Thulsa Doom didn't cast a spell once and then go "...oh, darn, hey, how did that go again?"

But you got past /that/, didn't you?

Though, caster or hero, they might make a supreme effort to accomplish something important - rather than making a supreme effort all the time, so there's /something/ (even if it's only drama) you use up and get back later when doing that sort of thing.

That cool trick may have only been possible under certain circumstances but if they weren't exhausted and the circumstances were met again they could do it all day long.
But circumstances wouldn't be met again, all day long - fiction has to make sense, afterall. So, functionally, limited-use is limited-use. How you model that in a game, though - because a player isn't going to feel the strain of making a supreme effort to leap across the room and cleave the Evil Sorcerer in half before he can finish his spell, if he has a 'cleave in half' power he can use all day, he's just going to cleave everything in his way in half.
 
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