Why did Giff (the hippo-men) receive modern-day fragmentation grenades in MTOF?!?

Jester David · Jul 14, 2018

Umbran said:
No. Only those discussion based on "sense" or "realism". And, when the game is neither sensical nor realistic, my point is valid. I mean, think about it - historical accuracy on space hippos? That's a problem? The fact that the DMG calls one renaissance and the other modern matters?

But the point is that the game works through willing suspension of disbelief. "Does ___ make sense?" is basically "how does this conform to the accepted and established rules of this fantasy world?" The game presents elements as factual and non-adherence to them is potentially problematic.
Because discrepancy between expected rules can break immersion at the table.

Given the question was about an anachronistic weapon, the wielder is potentially irrelevant. After all, the statblock could easily be applied to a pirate. Cross out "Giff" at the top and replace it with "Captain Jack". And the original question remains: how is a person wielding a primitive musket also weilding a fragmentation grenade?

If a monster statblock had, say, a chainsaw attack, pointing out that the item was associated with a magical elf doesn't negate the anachronism.

Umbran said:
If you have an issue of game balance, or other functional aspect of it in the game, my point does not hold. If it had been, "Gee, i find those grenades are well outside the range for the critter's CR. Do you all find it the same? What do you think of using this less powerful weapon from the DMG?" I'd have made no such comment as I did.

You haven't. But you could.

"Gee, i find those grenades are well outside the range for the critter's CR."
"It's a fantasy game where you play an enchanted pixie. Why does balance matter?"

Seems just as relevant.

Umbran · Jul 15, 2018

Jester David said:
Given the question was about an anachronistic weapon, the wielder is potentially irrelevant. After all, the statblock could easily be applied to a pirate. Cross out "Giff" at the top and replace it with "Captain Jack". And the original question remains: how is a person wielding a primitive musket also weilding a fragmentation grenade?

The person wielding a primitive musket is throwing a bomb with the same abstract stats as that the DMG says is a fragmentation grenade. Does the Giff stat block say they throw "early 21st century Earth fragmentation grenades"? No? Then it isn't one.

The base logic of "is has the same stats, so it *is* the same thing" is flawed in a game of fiction like this. A door with hardness 5 and 20 Hit points could be a strong wooden door, *or* a rusty and weak metal one. A bomb with those stats could be a modern fragmentation grenade, or a much larger device made with more primitive technology. Given that the Giff are large size creatures, this can work out just fine - it is a hand-sized grenade *for a Giff*, not for a human or other medium-sized character.

"Gee, i find those grenades are well outside the range for the critter's CR."
"It's a fantasy game where you play an enchanted pixie. Why does balance matter?"

Seems just as relevant.

Balance matters, because it impacts technical game play. You can reflavor the descriptive text all you like to not break your immersion - the functional question is whether the thing does too much or too little damage for the challenge we are told it represents. The guidelines are there so a GM can build the kind of challenge they want, and if they don't work, that's a technical issue, not merely a flavor-text issue.

Dannyalcatraz · Jul 15, 2018

Post Script: Having described this conversation to my wife, she's now in the next room giggling maniacally, but seriously insisting I run a game in which she can play a sexy librarian space hippo.

The only problem I have with the bolded section is “librarian”.

Edit: perhaps, like Milla Jovovich’s Violet from Ultraviolet, she produces hardcover books from an extra dimensional space and throws them?

[video=youtube;mI_n_l7sEeY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI_n_l7sEeY[/video]

Bonus: wears tunic that says “Come Giff some!”

Umbran · Jul 15, 2018

Dannyalcatraz said:
The only problem I have with the bolded section is “librarian”.

I think it works. Like Rachel Weiss in The Mummy, crossed with the Hip Hippos from the Animaniacs... but on a Spelljamming vessel.

Dannyalcatraz · Jul 15, 2018

Umbran said:
I think it works. Like Rachel Weiss in The Mummy, crossed with the Hip Hippos from the Animaniacs... but on a Spelljamming vessel.

Zardnaar · Jul 15, 2018

Umbran said:
No. Only those discussion based on "sense" or "realism". And, when the game is neither sensical nor realistic, my point is valid. I mean, think about it - historical accuracy on space hippos? That's a problem? The fact that the DMG calls one renaissance and the other modern matters?

If you have an issue of game balance, or other functional aspect of it in the game, my point does not hold. If it had been, "Gee, i find those grenades are well outside the range for the critter's CR. Do you all find it the same? What do you think of using this less powerful weapon from the DMG?" I'd have made no such comment as I did.

Jester David said:
But the point is that the game works through willing suspension of disbelief. "Does ___ make sense?" is basically "how does this conform to the accepted and established rules of this fantasy world?" The game presents elements as factual and non-adherence to them is potentially problematic.
Because discrepancy between expected rules can break immersion at the table.

Given the question was about an anachronistic weapon, the wielder is potentially irrelevant. After all, the statblock could easily be applied to a pirate. Cross out "Giff" at the top and replace it with "Captain Jack". And the original question remains: how is a person wielding a primitive musket also weilding a fragmentation grenade?

If a monster statblock had, say, a chainsaw attack, pointing out that the item was associated with a magical elf doesn't negate the anachronism.

You haven't. But you could.

"Gee, i find those grenades are well outside the range for the critter's CR."
"It's a fantasy game where you play an enchanted pixie. Why does balance matter?"

Seems just as relevant.

Context it's Spelljammer which is inherently silly. Up to you if you buy into it.

Greyhawk and Dark Sun hell no. Spell jammer the probably get them off tinker gnomes who drop the off with giant hamster powered spaces ships.

Blue · Jul 15, 2018

Jester David said:
Given the question was about an anachronistic weapon, the wielder is potentially irrelevant. After all, the statblock could easily be applied to a pirate. Cross out "Giff" at the top and replace it with "Captain Jack". And the original question remains: how is a person wielding a primitive musket also weilding a fragmentation grenade?

But the question was not about an anachronistic weapon, or rather it was already acceptable that they had grenades. It was about a weapon that did greater damage. That's like saying an ogre's club is anachronistic because it does as much damage as a chainsaw.

Henry · Jul 15, 2018

Jester David said:
And the World Cup is 480 people from 32 countries journey from across the world to run around a small grassy plain in their shorts chasing a stuffed plastic ball that they have to get to the far side of the meadow without picking it up or using their hands.

Life is silly. Nothing we do makes sense. Pointing out the insanity in our daily lives and mocking things that people enjoy and care about doesn't improve anything or add anything to the discussion.

It's not a useful argument because it could be applied to ANY discussion about the game.

In my opinion, “game involving people with shorts from around the world and a plastic ball” is not in the same ballpark as “bipedal hippos with muskets on open-deck wooden space galleons” on the silliness meter...

Darn it, I am THIIIS CLOSE to proposing a Spelljammer game to my game group... it’s making my dice itch!

Satyrn · Jul 15, 2018

Henry said:
... it’s making my dice itch!

Oh. your dice. I was about to report your post.

Umbran · Jul 15, 2018

Henry said:
...it’s making my dice itch!

Most of us use dice of plastic, metal, stone, or wood - insensate materials. What the heck are you using for dice, that they can itch? Hamsters, with numbers painted on, or something?