Help with handing out magic items

Blue · Jul 18, 2018

Oofta said:
There is no "official" list, these are lists that are derived from the existing rules. Modify a few assumptions and you get different results. I find the lists a useful ballpark guideline, but that's all. You can light up your PCs like Christmas trees if you want, you'll just have to make encounters more difficult to compensate for it (which you probably have to do if you have more than 4 PCs, use feats, etc).

I agree with Oofta, [MENTION=24254]Ymdar[/MENTION] - changes in assumptions. These all make some choices about baselines.

Here's the assumptions for how many rolls on each table for the link I gave:

FireLance said:
expected distribution of magic items that would be generated by what the DMG refers to as a "typical" campaign in the last paragraph of page 133, i.e. seven rolls on the Challenge 0-4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5-10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11-16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table.

Next assumption is has to do with there are no per-PC rolls, it's per party. So changes in party size will impact the number of items. The link I did had a party size of 4 - different party sizes may have less per PC because it's spread more ways. This leads to this:

FireLance said:
Over the course of a typical campaign, the party is expected to find [Note: there may be discrepancies from a simple summation of the above breakdown due to rounding]:
18 common consumables
20 uncommon consumables
19 rare consumables
18 very rare consumables
3 or 4 legendary consumables
9 or 10 uncommon permanent items
5 or 6 rare permanent items
5 very rare permanent items
4 legendary permanent items

Assuming a party of four PCs, each PC should obtain:
4 or 5 common consumables
5 uncommon consumables
5 rare consumables
4 or 5 very rare consumables
1 legendary consumable
2 or 3 uncommon permanent items
1 or 2 rare permanent items
1 very rare permanent item
1 legendary permanent item

And then finally the breakdown into what players get and what level was a manual "best fit". Since items are coming in as a party over a spread of levels, any individual PC has a spread of when they would be received. This was just an attempt at a theoretical good fit of what an average member of the party would get and at what levels. But there are a lot of assumptions to

Blue · Jul 18, 2018

Ymdar said:
I don't really want to give up wish lists for players but I do want a balanced game with magic items. In light of this, would it make a fairly balanced game if I used either of Oofta's or Blue's tables for the number of items, increased rarity by one step for all armor and ditched all upgrading options?
Should I decrease rarity for magic weapons or the current rarity by balance is fine?

How about an alternate suggestion - tell the players to make up their wish-lists but they can't include any +X items. Half the items you give will be fully random and hopefully the party either has a use or can trade it, the other half from wish-lists.

Oh, one potential issue with wish lists that can be headed off with a little early communication - I had a DM that asked for wish lists but just to include the items in the treasure, and it was still up to the party on how to distribute. In that campaign that went up to 12th, every single item on my wishlist that showed up except one was given to another character because it made more sense for them. Some were just generally useful, some filled another party memeber's weakness or leveraged their strength, or just it was an even call and some members had less.

Tony Vargas · Jul 18, 2018

Ymdar said:
I don't really want to give up wish lists for players but I do want a balanced game with magic items. In light of this, would it make a fairly balanced game if I used either of Oofta's or Blue's tables for the number of items, increased rarity by one step for all armor and ditched all upgrading options?
Should I decrease rarity for magic weapons or the current rarity by balance is fine?

5e is 'balanced' around no magic items, but if you're careful giving out items, you should be able to create some balance among the PCs. They will, however, be 'just better' than without items, so encounters will have to be ratchetted up to create encounter balance.

That doesn't seem like it would be particularly harder than just establishing party & encounter balance in the first place. In theory, carefully-chosen items could go a way towards establishing intra-party balance, since you can channel the best items to the weakest characters....

smbakeresq · Jul 18, 2018

First figure out what you NEED the players to find. Plot items that are also magic items, specific items needed to defeat or overcome a creature of obstacle.

Second, players like finding things, so magic items that are not directly useful but fun are ok to push. Murlynds spoon, the Cape that just billows in the wind, stuff like that. Alchemy Jug is great because mayonnaise is needed for all that bad fantasy food. A PC found a screaming monkey head alarm and carried it around forever.

Third, if you make a mistake, and give out something that seems a little unbalanced, you better have a good excuse to take it back or destroy it. Acid from some creature is a good way and relatable.

Fourth if you don’t want to take something back, a simple rule of “all ties go to the bad guys” works wonders to make the campaign a little harder and you can keep it behind the screen.

Fifth, and I recommend in every campaign, if you get the PC naked and afraid and in a situation where they have to succeed without any equipment but what they find will make players appreciate items more. See A4 in the Slavers series, players awake naked in a prison under a volcano that will explode if they don’t get out in time.

Quartz · Jul 19, 2018

I'm a big fan of items that scale with the character; I don't like PCs chucking their +1 item because they found a +2 item. In D&D terms that means, for example, that the sword that sheds light on command becomes a flaming sword, doing additional fire damage, then becomes a flaming and holy sword, doing additional fire and radiant damage. Or the magic staff gives an extra spell slot of the level of your proficiency bonus.

I'm also a big fan of items that scale on achievement, like the classic Rings of Elemental Command, or of finding extra bits, like the Rod of Seven Parts.

And then there are evil items. I'm not a fan of Zap! items or items that instantly change the PC, but items like a sword that encourages the fighter to kill, leading her down a dark path, are another matter. Contrariwise, you can give the PCs an item they know is evil and have them try to redeem it by showing it a better way.

smbakeresq · Jul 19, 2018

Check out Dragon Magazine article "Level up your Longsword" in issue 289.

For most things, check out this incredible Dragon Magazine index made by a person who I don't know but wish I could thank. http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/index.html

Its current through issue 359.

Blue · Jul 19, 2018

Quartz said:
I'm a big fan of items that scale with the character; I don't like PCs chucking their +1 item because they found a +2 item. In D&D terms that means, for example, that the sword that sheds light on command becomes a flaming sword, doing additional fire damage, then becomes a flaming and holy sword, doing additional fire and radiant damage. Or the magic staff gives an extra spell slot of the level of your proficiency bonus.

I can completely commiserate with what you are saying, from AD&D up through 4e (Oh my god, the item grind in 4e). But I can't say that across all of the 5e campaigns I've played that we've *ever* gotten multiple +X weapons for all the characters. Maybe one would find an upgrade, or someone trade in the short sword +1 for a rapier +2, but usually people went most of the campaign with the same item, or same lack of time. +X isn't a hidden part of character advancement math anymore.

This includes both home games and also some AL, for an idea of item frequency.

So I don't think that's really a problem anymore unless a DM specifically makes it a problem.

ad_hoc · Jul 19, 2018

Personally I find choosing items to be uninteresting. They stop being items and are instead just character abilities. If the party finds random items in play then they will adapt to those items. It makes for interesting decisions and also interesting character development. Even just a +1 weapon can be character defining.

But if you are going to go the route of having player's choose their items. Just let them do it. Don't make it convoluted. For example, don't put them in dungeons as 'loot'. Because it's not really loot, it's what the player chose - and they will be getting it.

Jon-Paul Ager-Cawley · Jul 23, 2018

When I DM players get no say in the magic items they get. We cut out teeth on 2nd ed where magic items were rare and a +2 sword was a thing of wonder.

I don’t think having rules for how they are handed out or making magic items an expected part of character progression is a good thing but I understand many people think differently. I use the random tables and swap out anything I don’t like for the PCs to find (never to buy).

That said, 4 decent magic items at 16 seems a good place to be. I don’t let my PCs use their knowledge of magic items to plan what they want to turn up in the game. If they fancy a Sword of Sharpness they need to go on a specific quest after doing the research: matey out of Krull did not find the Glaive without a specific quest to get it- didn’t he have to climb a hill or something; and there was a spider?

Just my take: your method seems okay, just not my cup of tea.