Revised Ranger update

Retreater · Aug 21, 2018

ad_hoc said:
Who is the player base?

Think about that one. Maybe you aren't the player base anymore.

I'd say that the player base includes all the players of the game, especially when there are enough players engaging with the revised ranger to have 30 pages of responses on this thread.
And yeah, I realize I'm probably no longer the main demographic for D&D, which is moving to an "auto success" story-driven game in the tradition of Critical Role that has little balance, interesting mechanics, or exciting nail-biting combat.

Parmandur · Aug 21, 2018

Retreater said:
I can only speak to my experience, but the local meta is that the PHB ranger isn't good and most players in my community prefer the UA ranger.
I think to dismiss the preferences of many players shows a lack of engagement with the player base, especially when the game is designed to be modular enough to support a variety of builds. His terse reply to end discussion and to shoot down an obviously popular choice (even if their D&D Beyond data or whatever doesn't necessarily support it) comes across as the same type of hubris that alienated many players during the 4e launch.
I think 5e's success is getting to their heads.

"Obviously popular" isn't apparently so obvious.

Parmandur · Aug 21, 2018

Retreater said:
I'd say that the player base includes all the players of the game, especially when there are enough players engaging with the revised ranger to have 30 pages of responses on this thread.
And yeah, I realize I'm probably no longer the main demographic for D&D, which is moving to an "auto success" story-driven game in the tradition of Critical Role that has little balance, interesting mechanics, or exciting nail-biting combat.

Bringing Critical Role into this discussion in this way is odd, as watching Laura Bailey play a Beastmaster no for hundreds of hours is a pretty good anecdotal case study on that subclass (very fiddley and doesn't work the way she wanted it to, but she still dominated mic of the time).

Ristamar · Aug 21, 2018

The ever-present powerful "pet" play style is unsuited to D&D as far as incorporating it into a reasonably balanced action economy under the umbrella of one character. It is a popular trope, but the end result was not going to satisfy a lot of people unless it essentially functions as a secondary PC (i.e. can hold its own in combat) . They'd have been better off presenting that type of Beastmaster as a variant instead of a piece of the core class.

ad_hoc · Aug 21, 2018

Retreater said:
I'd say that the player base includes all the players of the game, especially when there are enough players engaging with the revised ranger to have 30 pages of responses on this thread.
And yeah, I realize I'm probably no longer the main demographic for D&D, which is moving to an "auto success" story-driven game in the tradition of Critical Role that has little balance, interesting mechanics, or exciting nail-biting combat.

If by 'player base' you mean 'players' then just say players, player base has a different meaning.

5e is story-driven, as a roleplaying game should be. It is also well balanced, has interesting mechanics, and exciting combat.

It's cool if you don't like or understand the game. I'm sure the player base and WotC are okay with that too.

Chaosmancer · Aug 21, 2018

cbwjm said:
I'd also argue that a bunch of people on the internet saying that WotC got the PHB ranger wrong doesn't mean WotC actually did.

Very true, but in rebuttal to every complaint I've leveraged about the PHB Beastmaster in this thread, I've only really gotten one response defending it.

"People are playing Rangers and having fun" leaving "so the Beastmanster can't be that bad" to be implied. Which is some faulty logic, since Ranger =/= Beastmaster, but also isn't really a rebuttal of the complaints against the Beastmaster.

Heck, even the designers seem content with responding "people are playing, so why should we fix it" which is not a defense of the merits of the subclass.

Parmandur said:
Bringing Critical Role into this discussion in this way is odd, as watching Laura Bailey play a Beastmaster no for hundreds of hours is a pretty good anecdotal case study on that subclass (very fiddley and doesn't work the way she wanted it to, but she still dominated mic of the time).

I agree that was an odd choice, but it seems Retreater is in a camp that doesn't like the show. His loss in my opinion.

Personally, I loved Vex'halia, but I think our views on how the Beastmaster was showcased don't really align. Trinket wasn't a factor in almost any combat over the years of the campaign. In fact, I most remember Trinket in the storytelling aspects of "I have a pet bear" and then whenever combat was starting Trinket either stayed towards the back or stayed in the necklace.

And, dominating the mic is entirely based off the group dynamic and their training as actors. Nothing at all to do with the classes they were playing.

Parmandur · Aug 21, 2018

Chaosmancer said:
Very true, but in rebuttal to every complaint I've leveraged about the PHB Beastmaster in this thread, I've only really gotten one response defending it.

"People are playing Rangers and having fun" leaving "so the Beastmanster can't be that bad" to be implied. Which is some faulty logic, since Ranger =/= Beastmaster, but also isn't really a rebuttal of the complaints against the Beastmaster.

Heck, even the designers seem content with responding "people are playing, so why should we fix it" which is not a defense of the merits of the subclass.

I agree that was an odd choice, but it seems Retreater is in a camp that doesn't like the show. His loss in my opinion.

Personally, I loved Vex'halia, but I think our views on how the Beastmaster was showcased don't really align. Trinket wasn't a factor in almost any combat over the years of the campaign. In fact, I most remember Trinket in the storytelling aspects of "I have a pet bear" and then whenever combat was starting Trinket either stayed towards the back or stayed in the necklace.

And, dominating the mic is entirely based off the group dynamic and their training as actors. Nothing at all to do with the classes they were playing.

By "dominated" I meant that she laid out tremendous damage, and definitely contributed her fair share when the stakes we're high. She didn't want to put Trinket in danger, however, which goes to show how differently the designers and many Beastmaster inclined players were thinking.

Now, Crawford just mentioned the Ranger qua Ranger, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Beastmaster remains a steadily popular subclass, even if it is fiddley and convoluted. Narrative over optimization is how people make their characters, in general, and people love a pet story.

Mistwell · Aug 21, 2018

Crawford didn't say they would not address the known issues with beastmaster rangers. He said he won't be offering an alternative version of the class. Not the same thing. And as many people in this thread have mentioned, just a few things like new fighting style and some new spells can go a huge way to fixing it, without the need for an alternative anything.

CapnZapp · Aug 21, 2018

Yunru said:
Hey, remember when they promised 5e would be modular enough to play any past edition?

I remember seeing the rarity rules for magic items and immediately going "this can't be right, there's no support for playing the game the way it was played during the entire run of 3rd edition and the d20 revolution, including Pathfinder!?"

I expected an utility-based magic item economy to be featured in the very first splatbook.

It never came, and 5E has never been truly 3E compatible as a result.

CapnZapp · Aug 21, 2018

Mistwell said:
As you can see from that example, he is not saying or implying 5e would be "modular enough to play 4e" for example.

Nobody's talking about 4E here, an obviously different game that noone really thought 5E would be directly compatible with.

In the larger view, do you never tire of being a mouthpiece of WotC? Don't you think they should have to answer for themselves?

Revised Ranger update

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Parmandur

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Parmandur

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Ristamar

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ad_hoc

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Parmandur

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CapnZapp

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