Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

Maxperson said:

Giving a half-orc the street urchin background is like giving someone born and raised in the middle of a desert the sailor background. Can you pick it by RAW? Sure. Does it make any sense at all? Nope. Street urchins are small and weak. It's what makes them urchins and not toughs or other street people. I suppose if you wanted to play the half-orc runt of the litter who was small and weak, then sure, I'd be okay with him being an urchin. But the typical half-orc won't be one.

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That's irrelevant. Background is what the character was, not what the character is now. I'm sure we all know people who were relatively small, scrawny children and adolescents who had major growth spurts and ended up being large adults.

And, like you said, even if you do run the game with class as a concept that exists in the game world, there's nothing that requires a PC to be an exemplar of their race and class. PCs are allowed to break norms. That's why you can have half-orc wizards and tiefling paladins.

TwoSix said:

That's irrelevant. Background is what the character was, not what the character is now. I'm sure we all know people who were relatively small, scrawny children and adolescents who had major growth spurts and ended up being large adults.

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I don't know anyone that went from scrawny to being equal to the most buff bodybuilder in the real world, nor have I heard of it.

And, like you said, even if you do run the game with class as a concept that exists in the game world, there's nothing that requires a PC to be an exemplar of their race and class. PCs are allowed to break norms. That's why you can have half-orc wizards and tiefling paladins.

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An exemplar? No. Something recognizable as that race or class? Yes. Breaking a norm still involves being that thing in some recognizable fashion. An angry street urchin isn't recognizable as a barbarian. It's just a justification to use the barbarian mechanics(not barbarian) as something else.

TwoSix said:

That's irrelevant. Background is what the character was, not what the character is now. I'm sure we all know people who were relatively small, scrawny children and adolescents who had major growth spurts and ended up being large adults.

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Hands up everyone who immediately pictured that Charles Atlas ad

Maxperson said:

I don't know anyone that went from scrawny to being equal to the most buff bodybuilder in the real world, nor have I heard of it.



An exemplar? No. Something recognizable as that race or class? Yes. Breaking a norm still involves being that thing in some recognizable fashion. An angry street urchin isn't recognizable as a barbarian. It's just a justification to use the barbarian mechanics(not barbarian) as something else.

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Bet you also don't know any street urchins, barbarians, or half-orcs.

Ovinomancer said:

Bet you also don't know any street urchins, barbarians, or half-orcs.

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And?

Maxperson said:

I don't know anyone that went from scrawny to being equal to the most buff bodybuilder in the real world, nor have I heard of it.



An exemplar? No. Something recognizable as that race or class? Yes. Breaking a norm still involves being that thing in some recognizable fashion. An angry street urchin isn't recognizable as a barbarian. It's just a justification to use the barbarian mechanics(not barbarian) as something else.

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I know. Arnold was 5'10" and 240 when he was 9 years old! Close maybe But come on! How many body builders do you know? When I was younger I lifted a bit and read about the sport. There were many scrawny guys that bulked up and talked about it in books on the subject.

I agree with modifying things to find a fit. I really do. But Alfred Adler talked a lot about striving for superiority and changing greatly to overcome weakness. It doesn't matter if it's true---this is a very common idea even in pop culture. And that is D&D at times---emulating Batman as improbable but possible (little 8 year old in a mansion did not know martial arts or carry all that muscle.

that you would not see a way for something improbable in a fantasy game makes it seem like you are just trying to bait someone. A sailor background in a desert setting? Sure! He is a far travelled! Why assume he had to learn the skill right there? And if he grew up there couldn't he have left and learned the trade? No one said he sailed on a sand barge.

i don't want to change the way you play and you seem smart enough...but you really don't think the improbable belongs in a realm of fairies and dragons, ever?

I will leave it at that Before anyone quotes a statistic about how few sailors are in the middle of the Sahara. Respectfully that is tedious. Suffice to say you and most here want some reaonable basis for a character choice. Got it, and agreed to a point.

But next someone will say paladins must be Knights and have squires in a feudal system. I will let Others go down that path without pointing out the fork in he road they decided must not be allowed to exist.

Half-orc child acquired through the slave trade, but was quickly dumped on the streets when it became apparent it was sickly and proved to be no good for manual labour. The local thieves guild trained it up as one of their street urchins, their eyes and ears, however the creature was always plagued by a mysterious illness, being malnourished and living on the streets certainly did not help matters. Then one eventful day the Horde knocked on the town walls...
Taking pity on the bastard muggle that survived the onslaught, the local shaman/warlock of the tribe managed to shake off the child's illness/curse and so blossomed the half-orc barbarian, the secret weapon of the Horde.

Whenever the Horde desired to pillage a settlement, they would send in the half-orc who spoke the common tongue fairly well and had a knack for deceit having picked up the skill during his years on the street. Pretending to be trader/travelling labourer, the half-orc would scope out the village/town's defenses and report back to the Horde.

Additional backstory exploration - what was the mysterious disease or curse and how did the half-orc obtain it?

Half-Orc check
Street Urchin check
Barbarian check

Maxperson said:

And?

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Well, considering that your apparent expert knowledge on people who have gone from being small to buff is based on pretty much exactly the same level of knowledge as what you personally know about street urchins, ie. nothing, it's pretty hard to take you seriously when you are making absolute claims about what a street urchin can only be.

Warpiglet said:

...but you really don't think the improbable belongs in a realm of fairies and dragons, ever?

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Ever? Perhaps. So commonly that any player could just decide to play one, without requiring a discussion with the DM about the incredible circumstances surrounding it? Perhaps not.

Warpiglet said:

But next someone will say paladins must be Knights and have squires in a feudal system. I will let Others go down that path without pointing out the fork in he road they decided must not be allowed to exist.

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I'm having difficulty parsing your statement, but I will say that paladins must be knights and have squires in a feudal system in my setting.

Anyone ever read Alice by Christina Henry? A character named Harry Hatchet from the old part of town would fit the barbarian class, street urchin might even fit as a background although criminal might be the better fit.

On a side note, I also kind of feel that the criminal background should give you thieves' cant.