D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

5ekyu

Hero
Rolling this back a bit, I'm reminded of an experience I had with a new player some years ago. He came to the group and, as this was a VTT game, I didn't know the guy from a hole in the ground. No worries, I'd dealt with that before. But, he insisted that his character was Chaotic Neutral. This immediately set off alarm bells in my head and I made it very clear that we played a, to use an MMO term, Player VS Environment (as opposed to player vs player) game and the group really wasn't interested in a whole lot of interparty conflict and shenanigans. The player assured me that he had no problems working with the group, but, he really wanted to be CN.

So, I agreed with the caveat that if there were problems, we'd be having this conversation again and probably a lot less politely. :D

Months of play went by and the player was fine. No problems. Character fit into the group pretty much without a ripple. After a few months I turned to the player:

Me: Hey, you realize that your character isn't really Chaotic Neutral right? He doesn't do anything impulsive, he's a total team player and nothing about this character says CN.

Player: Absolutely not. I'm CN. I want to be able to do whatever I choose to do. I just choose to be a team player.

Me: Yeah. Ok. But, that's not really what CN means. Your character is pretty much definitively Lawful Good. You're kind, a team player, methodical and playing a pretty heroic character.

Player: Absolutely not. I'm CN.

So, I stepped back a bit and thought about what the player was actually saying. He didn't actually care what alignment was written on the sheet. He just didn't want me to force him to do anything. He absolutely didn't want me to be able to turn to him and say, "You wouldn't really do that, it's out of character." Now, since I had and have, zero interest in forcing anything on any player, I realized that the simplest answer was to just accept what he was saying at face value and move on.

Could I have forced the alignment change? Sure. I think I would have been perfectly justified in doing so. But, that would have made the game less fun for him and wouldn't actually gain me, as DM, anything. So, I didn't. I let it go and moved on.

That's how I view these Backgrounding things. What is the DM gaining by forcing the issue with the player? The player has made it very clear that the player isn't interested in dealing with X, whatever X is. It doesn't really impact the rest of the game and it costs me nothing. Literally. It costs me nothing since now I don't have to do any work adding that element to the game. IMO, this only makes the game better. I'm not wasting my time doing something that no one at the table actually wants to do and the player doesn't have to constantly futz around dealing with it.

AFAIC, it's entirely win win.
How I see it is that that's an apples to orangutan comparison.

The difference is alignment is just an internal issue for the vast majority of not all cases. Its "how I think" and "how I chose" as opposed to "how others think" and "what others do" and "how do things work in the world" etc.

"Townsfolk dont react badly to my bear or trex."
"My patron or God doesn't get involved in his clerics activitites."
"My motorcycle I drive around doesn't get stolen or messed with."


Unlike "whether I am CN or LG" which is an internal factor that **still** even if backgrounded leaves NPCs to react to the *actions* however they want. Unless in your game you have some actual mechanic that depended on alignment, in which case my bet is that's no longer a background item for you.
 

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Hussar

Legend
How I see it is that that's an apples to orangutan comparison.

The difference is alignment is just an internal issue for the vast majority of not all cases. Its "how I think" and "how I chose" as opposed to "how others think" and "what others do" and "how do things work in the world" etc.

"Townsfolk dont react badly to my bear or trex."
"My patron or God doesn't get involved in his clerics activitites."
"My motorcycle I drive around doesn't get stolen or messed with."


Unlike "whether I am CN or LG" which is an internal factor that **still** even if backgrounded leaves NPCs to react to the *actions* however they want. Unless in your game you have some actual mechanic that depended on alignment, in which case my bet is that's no longer a background item for you.

"My patron or God doesn't get involved in his cleric's activities" isn't really all that different from alignment. And, let's be honest, every edition of the game from 1e to 3e made alignment a major element mechanically. For me, it was a case of a single player wanting to essentially background alignment. Which is what backgrounding always is - a single player and a single character. So, for that player/character combination, alignment faded into the background and no problems. IIRC, he actually was playing a cleric, but, it's a long time ago, so, I could very easily be wrong there.

"How do things work in the world" is in the same very back seat as "realism" as far as I'm concerned. It just isn't important to me. I really, really don't care. So, if this player/character combination is an exception, so be it. Fair enough. Again, like I said, it adds to the player's enjoyment and costs me nothing. Why wouldn't I do it?
 

5ekyu

Hero
"My patron or God doesn't get involved in his cleric's activities" isn't really all that different from alignment. And, let's be honest, every edition of the game from 1e to 3e made alignment a major element mechanically. For me, it was a case of a single player wanting to essentially background alignment. Which is what backgrounding always is - a single player and a single character. So, for that player/character combination, alignment faded into the background and no problems. IIRC, he actually was playing a cleric, but, it's a long time ago, so, I could very easily be wrong there.

"How do things work in the world" is in the same very back seat as "realism" as far as I'm concerned. It just isn't important to me. I really, really don't care. So, if this player/character combination is an exception, so be it. Fair enough. Again, like I said, it adds to the player's enjoyment and costs me nothing. Why wouldn't I do it?
Sorry but how much God is involved in his cleric activity is very much different than alignment. If a divine is devoted to bring anti-undead but one of his clerics still getting sprlls etc is walking around with his train of undead followers, that creates an entirely different aspect to the world, not just a difference in his player's head. That's different from a character and a player just doing stuff.

And again, you isolate it down to one player, but there usually are others at the table. There are others who also have to consider the world.

As I have stated, in my games, my players enjoy having a consistent world where they can expect things to run along a set of normal predictable patterns *plus* a good deal of the fantastic. It's not "realism" we prefer but consistency and integrity from the setting. The more we played in systems eith gimmick meta-eraser mechanics the less enjoyment we had. So, for us, the unreasonableness of the trex not getting serious issues in town or only being able to steal some bikes but not others for no reason beyond GM fiat and one village skipped over but another razed to avoid messing up...

Those are not things I would ask the other players to sacrifice or be happy with seeing them getting less fun out of our games just to accommodate one player who prefers the game to be run differently - and so if someone says my game is not for them, that's great cuz I do not try and make my game please everybody.
 

Hussar

Legend
But the thing is, the world is still consistent. Not bringing something into the foreground doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just that you don't play it out.
 

pemerton

Legend
Flaw... "well acquainted with" and "did it myself" are not the same thing.
Did you miss the bit where it says "meting it out". That = "doing it themselves". [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] didn't comment on that either, but just engaged in some special pleading to distinguish this stuff from clerics.
 
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pemerton

Legend
he insisted that his character was Chaotic Neutral.

<snip>

Player: Absolutely not. I'm CN. I want to be able to do whatever I choose to do. I just choose to be a team player.

Me: Yeah. Ok. But, that's not really what CN means. Your character is pretty much definitively Lawful Good. You're kind, a team player, methodical and playing a pretty heroic character.

Player: Absolutely not. I'm CN.

So, I stepped back a bit and thought about what the player was actually saying. He didn't actually care what alignment was written on the sheet. He just didn't want me to force him to do anything. He absolutely didn't want me to be able to turn to him and say, "You wouldn't really do that, it's out of character."
I've seen you post about this example before. To me it suggests that that player had experienced some pretty toxic alignment GMing before joining your game! Which a certain approach to the AD&D alignment system can strongly encourage.
 

pemerton

Legend
Are there a large number of RPG players who want to play clerics of anti-undead gods with trains of undead followers? Why - what's the point? It's not something I've ever come across - is it a big thing?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Did you miss the bit where it says "meting it out". That = "doing it themselves". [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] didn't comment on that either, but just engaged in some special pleading to distinguish this stuff from clerics.

I did comment on it. Here was the response. "Context is important. The listed examples are all very experienced, and you don't get to be a conquering overlord, royal champion, hardened merc, etc., without killing and defending your life." It very specifically mentions that you don't get to be one of those things without killing.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
So I imagine all the spells and racial feats would also be off the table, you know because they were not there at the start of the campaign?

There's a difference between adding something new and changing something already established. I'm more open to the former than the latter. That said, I'd be tempted to only add new feats if the whole table agreed. The natures of spells and gear are more fluid; new stuff should appear from time to time.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Could be a bit frustrating, sure. Enough to leave a game and risk a friendship over? Would have to be a lot more than one rule I didn't agree with to cause me to quit, even if I assumed that we had agreed to not use that rule. Unless the rule changes mid-game became rampant and tyrannical, I'd let it be.

I always ask myself "Would I have agreed to play the campaign if these rules were disclosed at the beginning?" and let that answer drive my reaction.
 

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