D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

5ekyu

Hero
But the Shield spell doesn't state this. Nor does Uncanny Dodge.

Imagine a context where the GM says "It's the NPCs mage's turn. <rolls some dice> Tara, you take 11 hp from magic missiles!" That would not be atypical in D&D play, at least as I've experienced it. Presumably it doesn't preclude Tara's player declaring a Shield spell. Or an Uncanny Dodge.

I think describing it as "time travel" is ridiculous whether or not the damage dice have been rolled. In the fiction, there's no difference between the hitting and the dealing of the damage. The latter is part and parcel of the former. The only reason it's an issue at the table is because - purely for gameplay reasons - there's a desire to draw a limit on player knowledge at one point rather than another. As I already posted, Rolemaster makes the player make the decision at the targetting step; and another option would be to insist that the player gets to know if the result is a hit or not, but not see the dice or know what AC has been hit by the attack, but the 5e rules simply don't prescribe the process in that degree of detail (in recognition of the fact that different D&D tables have long had different practices in this respect).

So at some tables Shield spells are occasionaly peirced by attacks (where the to hit result was 5 or more above what was needed) while at others, where the GM declares attacks in terms of AC struck, a Shield is never wasted (and this will nearly always be the way that players declare attacks). Whether or not knowledge of the damage roll is also a factor in the decision-making about using a reaction is just another aspect of table practice (except for those cases where the rules expressly state the contrary).

Here is the text on reactions (Basic PDF p 70):

Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s. The opportunity attack, described later in this chapter, is the most common type of reaction.

When you take a reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.​

So there is no general rule that reactions happen after the trigger. You seem to be thinking of the "ready" action, which (p 72) involves declaring a "perceivable circumstance" as a trigger and which then allows the readied action to be taken "right after the trigger".

If a Shield spell or Uncanny Dodge worked in this way, then the trigger would have to be being targetted by an attack as that is an (in fiction) perceivable circumstance which can be followed by creating an arcane shield or dodging the attack. But a to hit roll succeeding is not an in fiction perceivable circumstance that occurs prior to the damage being rolled!

There is an in fiction perceivable circumstance that occurs between being targetted and being struck, which is something like "How dangerous the attack seems to be as it hurtles towards me!" But D&D doesn't have any procedural step of combat resolution that corresponds to this. (Contrast some other RPGs where, eg, this might be reflected by the number of dice in the attacker's pool.)

This means that if a player declares a readied action along the lines of "I leap in front of any attack against Tara that seems likely to do more than simply scratch her" I don't think the 5e rules provide any easy way to resolve that. Because we can't tell whether or not the attack is likely to do more than simply scratch Tara until we see the to hit and damage roll. At which point the "after the trigger has finished" rule suggests that Tara has been struck by the attacker and suffered the consequences of that.
Regarding reactions...

"If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction."

Without reactions a charscters turn *and* action go to completion/resolution as determined by rules.

With interactions, you have two cases - explicitly worded "interrupts action" reaction allows you to interrupt an action or event not just take a reaction on someone's turn. Shield spell, Feather fall, Counterspell are cases where it is specifically stated that the triggering action can be prevented from success - effectively interrupted at the ACTION level, not at the TURN level.

I am not arguing that this means roll damage before or after shield - my point is that it's the EXCEPTIONS that need to be called out in any ruleset and so any analysis based on specific counts of mentions and extrapolating from that the intent is a logic fallacy - very much like counting bullet holes in aircraft was,* I think it's actually called survivors bias.
.

* At one point early in air combat an analysis on where to armor planes was done by counting the bullet holes on planes that came back from combat and which sections had the most holes were to be given the most armor. Then someone realized that was opposite since you were looking at survivors only and a plane that survived with lots holes in a section proved that suction had less of an armor need not more.
 

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S'mon

Legend
To me, the principal virtue of RPGing as an activity, which distinguishes it from wargaming, boardgaming and watching a film with friends, is the collective participation in creating a fiction. The sort of approach to GMing that [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] is characterising as despotic seems to push against that virtue; it certainly doesn't seem to push in favour of it.

Another virtue of RPGing is skilfully playing the fiction - this is a secondary consideration for me, but still important as it is one of the things that distinguishes RPGing from pure storytelling. This virtue can be reconciled with GM authority over the fiction, provided that the GM is fair in adjudication. This is why classic D&D advice like that found in Moldvay Basic or Mike Carr's B1 places such emphasis on fairness in GMing. But frankly, ones the fiction gets more complicated than the pretty simple situations found in classic D&D dungeon-crawling I think the distinction between fair adjudication of the players playing the fiction and deciding what the outcome is based on one's own conception of where the fiction should ge becomes increasingly hard to maintain. For instance, deciding what happens when I (as my PC) poke a wall with a 10' pole can be a matter of fair adjudication; deciding what happens when I (as my PC) slyly mention to the duchess at the party that I believe the duke is having an affair with her chambermaid is a different kettle of fish altogether. If I (as my PC) hope that the duchess's response will be to walk up and slap her husband, rather than (say) leave the room in tears while cursing at me, I (as a player) will be rather sceptical of a GM's determination that the only true extrapolation of the fictional situation is the latter.

When playing D&D I don't want to be in author-stance, thinking of myself as a participant in group creation of a story, since what I want is you-are-there immersion, seeing the world through the POV of my PC. I found that 4e D&D had a nice solution in some of the combat powers, where the PCs had an in-universe ability to determine the outcome; previously only the domain of magic. This would work equally well for non-combat, where eg a Bard type character could use a power to determine how the Duchess reacts to the news. But if I as player get to determine the outcome, then I get taken out-of-character. This makes RPGing somewhat inherently fragile - the GM has authority to determine the outcome, but it had better be generally consistent with what the players think is reasonable or else the game breaks down. But I don't see a good alternative - I do like the Free Kriegsspiel approach that the GM always needs to be able to explain & justify their decision.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Despotism is negative.



I really don't care what level of power you prefer. Everyone has preferences and it's not really my concern or business how you prefer your games. So long as you are having fun, have at it. I just take exception to being called any of those names. I'm simply a DM. That's what you call me. That's where all the "power" lies. I don't rule a country, so despot, monarch, ruler, etc. are simply not applicable. Hell, I can't even tell my players what to do. Some "despot" I turned out to be.

Save the names. They don't do you or anyone else any good.

Despotism is negative to you. The first definition in the set posted by Imaro had no negative connotation -- merely a power/control requirement.
 

Sadras

Legend
Here's one way to look at it - I'm more likely to cast Shield if the arrow is coming for my head than my thigh. And one indicator of that - in D&D - is the damage roll.

Here's another way to look at it - it looks like the attack is going to clip at my shoulder armour (4 points of damage) and I have the Heavy Armour Master feat to prevent 3, so I don't bother casting the Shield, only to learn that the attack was actually a feint to position me for a slice follow through by the neck (10 points of damage).

Had I known the attack was a feint, I would have cast Shield. We can play these what-if scenario's all day long.
 

Hussar

Legend
Allow me to add this bit...

The game specifies that as the default rule triggered reactions events happen **after the trigger** unless stated otherwise.

That statement means the trend in the rules will be that they only need to mention the EXCEPTIONS in the individual rules.

So any sort of conclusions based on a nose count of how many times interrupt is specifically called out or mentioned is either uninformed or deceptive in its nature since they set it up so that it was only necessary to mention the exceptions.

/ninja'd by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]. Readied actions are a special case. Which, I did mention there were a few of in 5e.
 

5ekyu

Hero
But the Shield spell doesn't state this. Nor does Uncanny Dodge.

Imagine a context where the GM says "It's the NPCs mage's turn. <rolls some dice> Tara, you take 11 hp from magic missiles!" That would not be atypical in D&D play, at least as I've experienced it. Presumably it doesn't preclude Tara's player declaring a Shield spell. Or an Uncanny Dodge.

I think describing it as "time travel" is ridiculous whether or not the damage dice have been rolled. In the fiction, there's no difference between the hitting and the dealing of the damage. The latter is part and parcel of the former. The only reason it's an issue at the table is because - purely for gameplay reasons - there's a desire to draw a limit on player knowledge at one point rather than another. As I already posted, Rolemaster makes the player make the decision at the targetting step; and another option would be to insist that the player gets to know if the result is a hit or not, but not see the dice or know what AC has been hit by the attack, but the 5e rules simply don't prescribe the process in that degree of detail (in recognition of the fact that different D&D tables have long had different practices in this respect).

So at some tables Shield spells are occasionaly peirced by attacks (where the to hit result was 5 or more above what was needed) while at others, where the GM declares attacks in terms of AC struck, a Shield is never wasted (and this will nearly always be the way that players declare attacks). Whether or not knowledge of the damage roll is also a factor in the decision-making about using a reaction is just another aspect of table practice (except for those cases where the rules expressly state the contrary).

Here is the text on reactions (Basic PDF p 70):

Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s. The opportunity attack, described later in this chapter, is the most common type of reaction.

When you take a reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.​

So there is no general rule that reactions happen after the trigger. You seem to be thinking of the "ready" action, which (p 72) involves declaring a "perceivable circumstance" as a trigger and which then allows the readied action to be taken "right after the trigger".

If a Shield spell or Uncanny Dodge worked in this way, then the trigger would have to be being targetted by an attack as that is an (in fiction) perceivable circumstance which can be followed by creating an arcane shield or dodging the attack. But a to hit roll succeeding is not an in fiction perceivable circumstance that occurs prior to the damage being rolled!

There is an in fiction perceivable circumstance that occurs between being targetted and being struck, which is something like "How dangerous the attack seems to be as it hurtles towards me!" But D&D doesn't have any procedural step of combat resolution that corresponds to this. (Contrast some other RPGs where, eg, this might be reflected by the number of dice in the attacker's pool.)

This means that if a player declares a readied action along the lines of "I leap in front of any attack against Tara that seems likely to do more than simply scratch her" I don't think the 5e rules provide any easy way to resolve that. Because we can't tell whether or not the attack is likely to do more than simply scratch Tara until we see the to hit and damage roll. At which point the "after the trigger has finished" rule suggests that Tara has been struck by the attacker and suffered the consequences of that.
As a general rule for me, I give details on what was specified by the trigger for the reaction prior to your needing to decide.

If its trigger is "when hit" I give the hit info - basically total roll, we it a crit.

If the trigger is "when damaged" I reveal the damage.

If its targeted by MM I give number of missiles at you.

If its trigger is "moves out of reach" I give the spot they were moving to as they were leaving.

Unless there is explicit language to the contrary, i treat your being given a choice based on "x" to be a case where I as GM should give you the details of X so that you can make a choice that is informed.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
It's not despotism. You don't go to prison or get shot if you complain or try to leave.

Seriously, guys, words have meaning, and despotism doesn't suit any kind of rpg table.

As I said, there's some good points made about how traditional play has a very unbakanced power structure and how that can he liked or not, but when you toss on callimg the "other side" despots, you're not making points, you re just insulting.

Words do have meaning, just not the one you want to assign. Fathers, coaches, and bosses are referred to as despotic without killing those who complain. Despot refers to the level of personal power held by a ruler, not how that ruler actually rules. The first example from Oxford: "‘Thirty years of rule by benevolent despots who promote economic growth and development - even if it made sense - is simply not an option here.’"

Most people wield power poorly so most despots are cruel or oppressive. But that's not the nature of the word.
 

S'mon

Legend
To me, the principal virtue of RPGing as an activity, which distinguishes it from wargaming, boardgaming and watching a film with friends, is the collective participation in creating a fiction. The sort of approach to GMing that [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] is characterising as despotic seems to push against that virtue; it certainly doesn't seem to push in favour of it.

Another virtue of RPGing is skilfully playing the fiction - this is a secondary consideration for me, but still important as it is one of the things that distinguishes RPGing from pure storytelling. This virtue can be reconciled with GM authority over the fiction, provided that the GM is fair in adjudication. This is why classic D&D advice like that found in Moldvay Basic or Mike Carr's B1 places such emphasis on fairness in GMing. But frankly, ones the fiction gets more complicated than the pretty simple situations found in classic D&D dungeon-crawling I think the distinction between fair adjudication of the players playing the fiction and deciding what the outcome is based on one's own conception of where the fiction should ge becomes increasingly hard to maintain. For instance, deciding what happens when I (as my PC) poke a wall with a 10' pole can be a matter of fair adjudication; deciding what happens when I (as my PC) slyly mention to the duchess at the party that I believe the duke is having an affair with her chambermaid is a different kettle of fish altogether. If I (as my PC) hope that the duchess's response will be to walk up and slap her husband, rather than (say) leave the room in tears while cursing at me, I (as a player) will be rather sceptical of a GM's determination that the only true extrapolation of the fictional situation is the latter.

When playing D&D I don't want to be in author-stance, thinking of myself as a participant in group creation of a story, since what I want is you-are-there immersion, seeing the world through the POV of my PC. I found that 4e D&D had a nice solution in some of the combat powers, where the PCs had an in-universe ability to determine the outcome; previously only the domain of magic. This would work equally well for non-combat, where eg a Bard type character could use a power to determine how the Duchess reacts to the news. But if I as player get to determine the outcome, then I get taken out-of-character. This makes RPGing somewhat inherently fragile - the GM has authority to determine the outcome, but it had better be generally consistent with what the players think is reasonable or else the game breaks down. But I don't see a good alternative - I do like the Free Kriegsspiel approach that the GM always needs to be able to explain & justify their decision.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
I probably am, and I don't care.

But the question then arises: at what point during play is the damage intended to become part of the fiction by your interpretation?

Your prerogative, I suppose. :)

I'd suggest to opportune time would be when the damage is recorded. There are a whole bunch of things that can happen to the total between when it is announced and when it is recorded.
 

Hussar

Legend
Also just to add - a GM does not have absolute authority over anything or specifically over ANYONE. He is not the RULER.

That's because at any moment each and every person at the table can decide to say "no" and completely end the "authority" they have given the GM.

If the "players" choose to they can get up, decide you are not the GM anymore, decide someone else is GM and start their own game with the same characters in their own view of the same situation( s) and that's it.

No violence needed to get rid of you. Just " we revoke the authority we let you play with."

The GM can refuse to GM but if he wants to game must find other players to then convince them to give authority.

There is a direct link between "how much enjoyment do I as GM provide to my players" and "the authority i am given by them" in that without the former I likely not to keep the latter.

But, the choice to characterize a group agreeing to give the GM more control as being despotic GMed is telling.

Huh.
[MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION], you booted a player out of your gaming group because he didn't want to play a game that you wanted to play. You've never disputed that. Now, since no other player at the table could possibly do that, how exactly do you not have authority over someone?

Funny how the idea that you would pick a different day, create a new group and run what you wanted to run was never even mentioned as an option. No, instead you booted the player and more than a few people in this thread saw nothing wrong with that.

But, apparently, that doesn't mean authority over someone somehow... :erm:

Frankly, call it throat warbler mangrove for all I care. The point is that "traditional" DM'ing places virtually all the power in the hands of the DM.
[MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION] - the problem I have with calling it "Dungeon Master" is that I consider myself a DM. I regularly run D&D games. But, I certainly don't feel that I have the authority to eject a player for not wanting to play in my new campaign. I have a lot more loyalty to my players than that. If someone at my idea objected to my next campaign idea, I'd simply pitch another one. The notion that players are essentially disposable runs very, very against how I view the table.
 

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