D&D 5E Training for Leveling (DMG) too cheap?

I'm starting to prepare my next campaign as my current one will wrap up by the end of the year.

It will be more of an old school mega-dungeon crawl that uses GP for XP + milestones. Extracting gold and resource management, along with ample use of downtime rules will be a big part of this campaign.

I plan on using rules for training for leveling. I'm starting with the Training to Get Levels table in the DMG Chapter 6. I'm fine with the training time and level break down but the costs seem too cheap, especially for higher tiers. To find teachers/academies/gyms with the skills and resources to train at that level and to even interest what must be prestigious and rare instructors would seem to require far more money than the table indicates. The cost to level up even at Tier 4 levels is under 100 GP.

This will be a high-treasure game. There will be all manner of ways to sap the parties wealth and I want them to be thinking about and even worried about how they will afford to level up. I don't want to make it to difficult but it should be a consideration.

Has anyone else created Training to Gain Levels Rules? Would you share?

How much would you suggest increasing the cost? I'm thinking of keeping 2-4th as is (20 GB per level). But I want to significantly increase the cost to train for the higher levels.

I plan on using the Training Complications rules from XGE with the Training to Get Levels. Do you see any issues with this?

I'm also thinking of using some ideas from the Master and Apprentice rules in EN5ider #023. In particular, it provides a mechanism where the player makes a number of skill checks, adds the results and consults a table where low score increase the cost and time of training and high rolls decrease it. But it still uses the DMG costs as the base.

Finding a trainer/mentor will be important. For low levels, this is built in. But at each tier, I would like for them to have to seek out better training opportunities. I'd appreciate any thoughts on mechanics for finding a mentor. I don't want to spend at-table time roleplaying this out. It is more of a downtime activity. But I do like the idea of baking in some way of rewarding creative thinking by the player.

MNblockhead said:

I'm starting to prepare my next campaign as my current one will wrap up by the end of the year.

It will be more of an old school mega-dungeon crawl that uses GP for XP + milestones. Extracting gold and resource management, along with ample use of downtime rules will be a big part of this campaign.

I plan on using rules for training for leveling. I'm starting with the Training to Get Levels table in the DMG Chapter 6. I'm fine with the training time and level break down but the costs seem too cheap, especially for higher tiers. To find teachers/academies/gyms with the skills and resources to train at that level and to even interest what must be prestigious and rare instructors would seem to require far more money than the table indicates. The cost to level up even at Tier 4 levels is under 100 GP.

This will be a high-treasure game. There will be all manner of ways to sap the parties wealth and I want them to be thinking about and even worried about how they will afford to level up. I don't want to make it to difficult but it should be a consideration.

Has anyone else created Training to Gain Levels Rules? Would you share?

How much would you suggest increasing the cost? I'm thinking of keeping 2-4th as is (20 GB per level). But I want to significantly increase the cost to train for the higher levels.

I plan on using the Training Complications rules from XGE with the Training to Get Levels. Do you see any issues with this?

I'm also thinking of using some ideas from the Master and Apprentice rules in EN5ider #023. In particular, it provides a mechanism where the player makes a number of skill checks, adds the results and consults a table where low score increase the cost and time of training and high rolls decrease it. But it still uses the DMG costs as the base.

Finding a trainer/mentor will be important. For low levels, this is built in. But at each tier, I would like for them to have to seek out better training opportunities. I'd appreciate any thoughts on mechanics for finding a mentor. I don't want to spend at-table time roleplaying this out. It is more of a downtime activity. But I do like the idea of baking in some way of rewarding creative thinking by the player.

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I had the similar thoughts when I started my current campaign, wanting training to be an expense that did put a limit on resources at times. Some of the references in here are campaign specific but maybe the basic outline will help.

The campaign has 3 groups running on a time line keeping them roughly level and at the moment all groups are 3rd or 4th level. To date money for training has been an issue but this has allowed them to do tasks from mentors in payment which has helped with the story (often mentor tied to background).

No means perfect but suits what I wanted.

There are also additional rules for training feats as part of levelling.
[h=1]. Training[/h]Characters require training when going up a level.
Level 1 – starting characters are deemed to have undertaken at least 1 year training in their chosen class either at a training academy or from a PC or NPC of at least fifth level. A multi classing character requires a training academy or a PC or NPC of at least fifth level to train them in the new class.
Levels 2-5 – any PC or NPC of a higher level and the same class (and archetype) can train another character. In the case of classes that gain spells they can only learn spells that are available from their trainer (though can gain other spells when available – they do not need to fill all available known spell slots – just gain training in how to fill these.
Levels 6-12 – training can only be obtained by from a PC or NPC who is at least 3 levels higher than the PC and of the same class and archetype or is a designated trainer (for example on Warrior’s Isle for martial classes, Colleges for Bards, Schools for Wizards or Temples for Clerics).
Levels 13-18 - training can only be obtained by from a PC or NPC who is at least 1 level higher than the PC and of the same class and archetype or at a designated training academy (for example on Warrior’s Isle for martial classes, Colleges for Bards, Schools for Wizards or Temples for Clerics).
Levels 19-20 – PCs training can only come from a level 20 PC or NPC or at a designated training academy.
[h=2]Training Time[/h]For levels 2-20 it takes 5 days per level being trained to obtain the new level at a training academy. This time is doubled for training done by PC or NPC of the appropriate level – if the trainer is 2 or more levels above what is needed then the training time is standard.
The time is based on the level of the class the character is going to not the characters overall level.
Training to a new class (Multi classing) takes 100 days.
[h=2]Training Cost[/h]Can depend on who is doing the training. Training Academies roughly charge 1gp per level the character is going up to per day of training (e.g., a 4^th level Fighter training to be 5^th level would cost 5gp per day for 25 days so a total of 125gp.
Training cost level is the characters total level not the level in the class.

So, I haven't put much thought into training, but I have put a little bit of thought into money.

I find that a good expectation for gold-per-level is roughly level squared * 100. E.g., at 1st level you can give each PC 100 gp, at 2nd you give them 400 gp, at 3rd you can give them 900 gp, etc. up to 20th level where you can give each one 40,000 gp.

This doesn't exactly match the progression you would get from following the guidelines in the books (which is a difficult cat to skin -- there is a lot of analysis about this out on the internet) but it's close enough to work for me. In particular, it's an easy enough formula to vary it a bit, and easily break it up into smaller parcels. For example, if you think that a certain section of the dungeon will get the party from roughly level 4 to level 5, then you sprinkle about 1,600 gp per PC throughout that level. If your game includes a magic-item economy, then this number should include the sale value of the magic items you give out (since the PCs can just liquidate it back into gold -- if they elect to keep the "random" item, they are getting it at cost).

The other nice thing about this formula is it's easy to relate other costs to level. In your case, how much of a PC's wealth should go into training? If you want the PCs spend about 10% of their gold on training, then the cost of training equals current level squared * 10. So 10 gp to train to 2nd level, 40 gp to train to 3rd, 90 gp to train to 4th, etc., up to 3,610 gp to train to 20th level. That sounds like a super lot compared to the DMG pricing, but if you follow the polynomial gold expectation, it's not really that expensive.

In a long running campaign I used training but it was more for RP and hooks than to drain the gold away. Example one high level trainer was more interested in having the PC help them with catching slavers and removing the duke and installing his younger brother, who was a friend to the trainers cause. NPCs with agendas helps bring the world to life. They did spend a lot of gold paying informants to find the slavers though, so in a way they did have a gold drain

77IM said:

The other nice thing about this formula is it's easy to relate other costs to level. In your case, how much of a PC's wealth should go into training? If you want the PCs spend about 10% of their gold on training, then the cost of training equals current level squared * 10. So 10 gp to train to 2nd level, 40 gp to train to 3rd, 90 gp to train to 4th, etc., up to 3,610 gp to train to 20th level. That sounds like a super lot compared to the DMG pricing, but if you follow the polynomial gold expectation, it's not really that expensive.

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This seems that it will work quite nicely.

For 4th tier, however, I think that more than gold will be required. You are getting to just insane levels of power at that point. Already in 2nd and 3rd tiers, you would need access to factions, cults, academies to get access to the skills and knowledge needed. By fourth tier levels, you may be among the few or the only people in your region or the world who has reached these levels. At this point, YOU are the expert and you will be working with a team to come up with new moves, research lost powers, create/discover new spells, etc. What this looks like, will depend on the class and I would try to put most of the flavor in the hands of the player. They can narrate the story around the mechanics to time and cost required and complications.

Anakzar said:

In a long running campaign I used training but it was more for RP and hooks than to drain the gold away. Example one high level trainer was more interested in having the PC help them with catching slavers and removing the duke and installing his younger brother, who was a friend to the trainers cause. NPCs with agendas helps bring the world to life. They did spend a lot of gold paying informants to find the slavers though, so in a way they did have a gold drain

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This is my normal approach. But this campaign is a mega-dungeon. Everything outside the dungeon is basically downtime. I'm working on a system to determine the time and cost required, complications, and maybe perks that are determined in part on skill-check rolls. It is up to the player to narrate who they found, what side quests they had to complete, what training looked like, etc. I won't make the players do this. If they just want to roll dice and change numbers on a character sheet, fine. But I'll give a bonus on the skill check rolls (which can result in lest time, more perks, and fewer complications) to those players who briefly narrate their training to the group.

I would recommend a Tier-based cost, eg 10gp > 100gp > 1000gp > 10000gp ought to work well with 5e's expected treasure values.

BTW running a 5e megadungeon (Stonehell conversion) myself, I think as a format it's quite challenging to do over 20 levels. Stonehell looks great for 1-10* and maybe stretching up through 16, but I'm not sure the format can support Epic Tier play very well. I'd be interested to hear your experiences.

*Highest PCs are currently 8th; 5-10 is definitely a dungeon-delving sweet spot.

MNblockhead said:

How much would you suggest increasing the cost? I'm thinking of keeping 2-4th as is (20 GB per level). But I want to significantly increase the cost to train for the higher levels.

I plan on using the Training Complications rules from XGE with the Training to Get Levels. Do you see any issues with this?

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Honestly? I think there are no issues, but it's pointless.

On a campaign budget, if you require your PCs to spend 100 GP to level up, as a DM you will have to let them earn 100 GP before next level. If you require them to spend 10000 GP, you'll have to let them earn 10000 GP.

There is really no difference, even when you consider the price for levelling compared to the magic item prices, because 90% of the players will not want to be prevented from levelling up, which feels more personal than gaining magic items. So theoretically the higher the price of levelling up, the more likely some players will choose buying equipment instead of levelling up, but practically I think they'll maybe lag behind 1 level at most, then they will grumble and just pay to level up as the others (unless they all decide not to).

This is after all probably the reason why the DMG variant rules don't bother setting a particularly high price for levelling up.

MNblockhead said:

I'm also thinking of using some ideas from the Master and Apprentice rules in EN5ider #023. In particular, it provides a mechanism where the player makes a number of skill checks, adds the results and consults a table where low score increase the cost and time of training and high rolls decrease it. But it still uses the DMG costs as the base.

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That's terrible. It means your levelling up depends on luck, and of the worst kind of luck i.e. dice rolls with not much to do. On the short term it is more likely to frustrate some players than to reward others. On the long term the averages will even out, so it won't actually make a difference.

MNblockhead said:

Finding a trainer/mentor will be important. For low levels, this is built in. But at each tier, I would like for them to have to seek out better training opportunities. I'd appreciate any thoughts on mechanics for finding a mentor. I don't want to spend at-table time roleplaying this out. It is more of a downtime activity. But I do like the idea of baking in some way of rewarding creative thinking by the player.

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Here is the crux of the matter: you must make sure all your players will enjoy bothering with this activity. Even you are now saying that you don't want to spend time with this... do they want to spend time with this?

It sounds to me like you are motivated by some need to strengthen the ties between levelling up and the narrative of the characters in the world, and that's a GOOD motivation.

But as you say, if you need to spend too much time at the table (but keep in mind also that some bookkeping requires time between sessions) then it becomes more annoying than fun. This happens to a lot of gaming groups when the DM thinks it's a good idea to keep more track of something... more realism should be more fun, right? Only, this can become as fun as paying your school tuition fees

Finding a trainer or taking a training lesson can be a GREAT story hook... requiring it for each player and each time they level is not the same. As a hint: how many times in a movies/series the main character has a training session which provides a major step in the character's skill? Typically once. Try to imagine how would the movie feel if every 5 minutes (or once per episode for a series) they would show another training session. It's not impossible, but then the movie/series would become more about training than adventuring. Just make sure your players are on board with this... otherwise the whole "training rules" will just become a tax, a box to tick on your character sheet after paying the GP cost and move along with the game.

Li Shenron said:

As a hint: how many times in a movies/series the main character has a training session which provides a major step in the character's skill? Typically once.

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This is a good point and I think makes an argument for having training as a requirement at the Tier breaks, not every level.

So Newbie Luke trains with Obi-Wan to go 4 > 5.
Experienced Luke trains with Yoda to go 10 > 11.
Paragon Luke goes off to the Jedi Temple and trains 16 > 17.

S'mon said:

I would recommend a Tier-based cost, eg 10gp > 100gp > 1000gp > 10000gp ought to work well with 5e's expected treasure values.

BTW running a 5e megadungeon (Stonehell conversion) myself, I think as a format it's quite challenging to do over 20 levels. Stonehell looks great for 1-10* and maybe stretching up through 16, but I'm not sure the format can support Epic Tier play very well. I'd be interested to hear your experiences.

*Highest PCs are currently 8th; 5-10 is definitely a dungeon-delving sweet spot.

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In my last campaign, which as a homebrew campaign with now official D&D adventure content, but lots of adapted third-party content, we went from 1-20.

The main issue I had was the amount of time need to prep good set-piece battles. Outside of combat, Role Play works as well at 20 as it does at 1st. Puzzles do tend to become a bit more fun house, though. Your typical traps and mazes are not going to cut it at this level. But an ever-rotating maze with monster generator and countdown to destruction in its own demiplane created by a mad mage can provide a challenge. Sure, at this level, they could use magic to escape, but escape equals failure and the bad guy wins. You have to up the stakes and be less forgiving in terms of time crunches, rest, etc.

For not-set-piece encounters, I didn't sweat it. Sure, they would normally steamroll anyone dumb or ignorant enough to attack them, but at these levels they earned it. Also, when the bad guys get lucky, it can be funny.

Set-piece encounters, however, take a LOT of prep work at high levels, at least for me. Especially because at that time, there was a dearth of official high-level monsters. So first, I would even have to build up a powerful foe or alter an existing monster. I would need to play them as intelligent and really have to plan out their tactics and lairs. My players are ALL more experienced than I am and in addition to decades of D&D they have played many other TTRPGs and we are all heavy board-game players and some of us also have a wargame background, though no many of us have the time for weekend-long sandbox games. If I didn't put in a significant amount of planning, the 4-6 experience heads of my players are going to find weaknesses that my one overtaxed head forgot.

Just knowing the powers of my foes was not enough. I can't tell you how many times I've overlooked something or forgot a power that would have to cause the foe to be more of a challenge or would have saved the foe. Something the FOE would have known and done, but I forgot in the heat of the game. So I make sure I have a tactical battle plan. I know what the foes first moves are going to be. I wargame different scenarios.

Also, at this level, FORGET about worrying about metagaming. When you are talking about liches, archmages, beholders, and ancient dragons, you are talking about incredibly intelligent creatures with lifetimes of experience. As a DM you'll never have the intelligence and experience they are supposed to have. The only way to model this is through (1) spending a lot of time preparing various moves and tactics in advance and (2) designing the encounter and tactics based on the player characters' strengths and weaknesses.

My prep involves using Hero Lab's (by Lone Wolf Development) character and custom-monster creator, and its encounter builder. Then I put the foes and the PCs into the Hero Lab tactical console and I try to play out the fight to try to catch any obvious short cuts to victory. Based on that I will harden the foes as needed.

Some other general advice about high-level encounters:

1. Lair actions are your friends. Make the PCs go to the danger rather than the danger come to them.

2. Beyond lair actions, most intelligent foes are going to make the lair itself as deadly as possible for intruders. Don't just stick an ancient dragon on a pile of treasure in a cavern. It's going to have minions, traps, waits to close off entrances, emergency escape routes, etc.

3. Powerful people have powerful partners and powerful friends. I'm tired of one powerful bad guy and a bunch of weak minions. At high levels, there are too many ways for your players to manage this situation. You need to have very powerful people teaming up, working together. To accomplish their goals they will have very powerful underlings and they are not going to be encountered in sequence. Without ingenious planning, the party isn't going to catch a big bad by itself. They will face running a gauntlet of death. Powerful casters with 75% cover spamming attacks from murder holes, other casters with counterspells at the ready to protect against assassinations and attacks. Forbiddance and other area protections ritually cast making it a resource management issue--to you remove protections or focus on attacks? If you focus on attacks do you have a reliable means of escape if you need it?

4. Mobs still present a thread to 4th tier characters, especially if you use the mob rules in the DMG. The mob rules in the DMG are your friend. It provides automatic hits when a certain number of attackers mob a character. The number of attackers needed increases with the targets AC, but even an AC 20+ character is going to take some damage every round. A massive zombie attack should be concerning, even for someone in magic plate mail. I have a silhouette paper cutter and some paper minis and cut files for a bunch of monsters. I can whip up a huge army of the undead in a couple hours. Laydown a battle map with some interesting terrain, put some threats/goals the give a sense of urgency and a reason to take on the horde, and have fun. At the highest levels, you'll want multiple goals. Have pockets of innocent villagers spread out far apart and make the party run around expending resources trying to save as many as they can. At the same time, their mission to take out the wraith leaders or necromancer leaders, and/or get some holy relic before the necromancers do.

5. Hit Points are boring. You'll likely want to up the hit points, maybe taking the max based on the creatures hit dice, rather than the average. But simply chipping away at a bag of hit points is boring. At high levels, you will want foes with magic abilities that help them move out of danger, exert control over the battlefield, which can hit the party hard, but also create obstacles. Spend more time thinking about how to using spells like Prismatic Wall and powerful illusion spells. Focus more time thinking about how the smart, big bad can AVOID taking damage more than just dishing it out. In a game of hit and then get hit, the party will almost always win. You lich doesn't want to get hit. He didn't get to be where he is by letting himself get hit. He should be difficult to hit and damage.

I think 5e handles high levels just fine. It doesn't slow to a crawl as other systems do at high levels. But any high-level play with complicated features and spells in play will require more preparation from the DM. I generally would just wrap up the campaign within a session or two of the characters reach level 20, mostly because the extra preparation time needed gets burdensome.