A Change of Discussion

LordEntrails · Oct 12, 2018

Warpiglet said:
With D&D, the conversation often centers on damage output and the many 'musts.' I am astonished at times at how vehemently people claim something is a 'trap,' when what might be more accurate is 'slightly lower bonus' to a particular roll. When new players read or hear this, I think it gives a skewed view of the game.

Another perspective, or corollary to this, is since we know the number of D&D players has more than doubled in the last few years, and I'm pretty sure that the number of people discussing DPR and such on forums such as EN World has not doubled in the same time frame. (No data to actually support those assumptions, but I think casual observation upholds them.)

Most new players don't care about DPR. And as has been discussed before and and in many ways, most players, old & new, don't care about DPR. It's only those that spend so much time on ENWorld etc worrying about DPR. (Note, I rarely see optimization posts on Facebook).

Often overlooked are other issues which are important to the game. There is exploration and social encounters and general problem solutions (utility) and so forth. However, we don't really have a metric for this sort of discussion.

Over looked here, and probably in most places too. And trying to analyze the subjective, is only going to appeal to (mostly) the same set of players that worry about DPR in the first place.

I would ponder, are these need/desire to quantify due to some concern that "if I don't optimize, I'm not getting the most fun out of the game that is possible"?

Sword of Spirit · Oct 12, 2018

LordEntrails said:
And trying to analyze the subjective, is only going to appeal to (mostly) the same set of players that worry about DPR in the first place.

I would ponder, are these need/desire to quantify due to some concern that "if I don't optimize, I'm not getting the most fun out of the game that is possible"?

Here's one take on it. I really can't stand to to "min" things (few of my character concepts involve being below average in much), and consequently I don't get to "max" any either. I also often like to have a lot of different things I can do, many of them not relevant to combat (or even relevant to much more than flair). Because of this, I like to have some degree of system mastery so I can avoid making decisions that weaken my character even more than the role-playing ones I'm going to make.

When it comes to DPR, I don't care if my character has the highest DPR, or even the highest DPR for their role. But what I do like to know about and take account of (and what I will comment on and house rule if it's bad enough) is imbalances in the rules where you have two character options that are extremely similar, except one of them is just straight up better. This is especially offensive if the one that should be the best at something is in fact not as good as another option. Like Zealot versus Berserker (due to exhaustion). Those really grate on me. And those things are often measurable in DPR.

So yes, there can be value in knowing white room DPR even for those who don't power-game.

Leatherhead · Oct 12, 2018

Unpopular opinion time: Mage Hand is severely overrated.
It doesn't scale ( 10lbs and 30' forever and ever)
It isn't invisible, or in any way sneaky like a lot of people assume it is (unless you are an Arcane Trickster, but they have exclusive rules).
All the cool stuff you are thinking about doing with it is either hard coded to be limited to the Arcane Trickster, or simply impossible due to the wording of the spell (seriously, you can't make someone drink a Potion of Healing with it because potions are magic!)
Just get yourself a familiar and tell it to fetch instead.

Oofta · Oct 12, 2018

Leatherhead said:
Unpopular opinion time: Mage Hand is severely overrated.
It doesn't scale ( 10lbs and 30' forever and ever)
It isn't invisible, or in any way sneaky like a lot of people assume it is (unless you are an Arcane Trickster, but they have exclusive rules).
All the cool stuff you are thinking about doing with it is either hard coded to be limited to the Arcane Trickster, or simply impossible due to the wording of the spell (seriously, you can't make someone drink a Potion of Healing with it because potions are magic!)
Just get yourself a familiar and tell it to fetch instead.

It's one of those spells who's utility is in the eye (hand?) of the spell caster. And the DM of course. It may well not be worthwhile in your campaign, but will be in others for throwing levers, opening potentially trapped chests, closing doors, assist with an illusion, etc.

Also, if someone wanted to give someone a healing potion with mage hand I'd allow it whether or not that crosses the line into a house rule. If a mage hand can give someone a drink from a bottle, it doesn't matter if that bottle contains a healing potion or wine. It could not be used to activate a wand of fireballs.

Besides, it's a cantrip. How useful is it supposed to be?

Satyrn · Oct 12, 2018

Oofta said:
Besides, it's a cantrip. How useful is it supposed to be?

It should at least give the tabaxi a good buzz

Bawylie · Oct 12, 2018

You do have a metric. It’s DPR - and HP.

Let’s make a quick comparison. Consider the 3rd level spell Fireball. It does 8d6 damage to an area at range. Assuming that spell hits three enemies, it’s 24d6 worth of damage dealt. Now consider the 3rd level spell Fly. For 10 minutes, the target gains a fly speed of 60’. And the 3rd level spell Lightning Bolt also comes in at 8d6 (or 24d6 if you hit 3 creatures with it).

So it seems to me there is a point value to 3rd level spells. A value about equal to 24d6 (on average, 84).

While Fly doesn’t deal any damage at all, its position as a 3rd level spell indicates to me that it overcomes (on average) 84 HP worth of adversity, or provides 84 HP worth of benefit, or some combination thereof. (For instance, the flying adventurer avoids enemies that can no longer reach them, can attack enemies that were out of reach themselves, and can ignore difficult terrain or other hazardous or unsafe terrain). Fly has a 10 minute duration, so I suppose those 84 points are spread over the life of the spell as opposed to accruing instantly like fireball and lightning bolt.

Anyway, look at other spell levels and you’ll find steady damage increases. And guess what? Additional damage from fighter types also increases in line with spell levels. It’s pretty consistent.

I conclude that you can essentially measure the effectiveness of non-combat activity by comparing it to DPR spells and weigh that against typical encounter CRs as if the non-combat challenges were monsters. If it’s not exact, it’s at least well-within the same ballpark. And that being the case, you can award XP accordingly. So there’s your metrics, if you want to do that level of analysis.

Bawylie · Oct 12, 2018

Bawylie said:
You do have a metric. It’s DPR - and HP.

Let’s make a quick comparison. Consider the 3rd level spell Fireball. It does 8d6 damage to an area at range. Assuming that spell hits three enemies, it’s 24d6 worth of damage dealt. Now consider the 3rd level spell Fly. For 10 minutes, the target gains a fly speed of 60’. And the 3rd level spell Lightning Bolt also comes in at 8d6 (or 24d6 if you hit 3 creatures with it).

So it seems to me there is a point value to 3rd level spells. A value about equal to 24d6 (on average, 84).

While Fly doesn’t deal any damage at all, its position as a 3rd level spell indicates to me that it overcomes (on average) 84 HP worth of adversity, or provides 84 HP worth of benefit, or some combination thereof. (For instance, the flying adventurer avoids enemies that can no longer reach them, can attack enemies that were out of reach themselves, and can ignore difficult terrain or other hazardous or unsafe terrain). Fly has a 10 minute duration, so I suppose those 84 points are spread over the life of the spell as opposed to accruing instantly like fireball and lightning bolt.

Anyway, look at other spell levels and you’ll find steady damage increases. And guess what? Additional damage from fighter types also increases in line with spell levels. It’s pretty consistent.

I conclude that you can essentially measure the effectiveness of non-combat activity by comparing it to DPR spells and weigh that against typical encounter CRs as if the non-combat challenges were monsters. If it’s not exact, it’s at least well-within the same ballpark. And that being the case, you can award XP accordingly. So there’s your metrics, if you want to do that level of analysis.

Here’s a proof of concept:

The ability to pick a lock of some kind is about equivalent to the 2nd level spell Knock.

The 2nd level DPR spells are Cloud of Daggers (4d4 persisting in an area) and Scorching Ray (3 rays that each do 2d6 fire damage). This is roughly 21-22 DPR.

So I conclude Knock is worth about 21 DPR and therefore so is picking a lock.

What has 21 HP? Well, a zombie (CR 1/4, 50 XP) has 22. That’s close enough for me.

So knock is worth 50XP, and so is the ability to pick a lock. A basic lock, then, seems like it is also CR 1/4.

Utility has a value. That value is consistent (albeit not necessarily perfectly) with same-level DPR spell slots.

LordEntrails · Oct 12, 2018

"assume", "assume", "suppose"
But what if the fireball only hits 1 target? Or it hits 20...

And if the adventure is in a dungeon with 10 foot ceilings and no chasms to cross, then fly is not worth 84 HP is it? But if the adventure is in a mountainous terrain where flight saves days of travel and avoids a dozen encounters, then it's worth more than 84HP isn't it?

My point wasn't about DPR, it was about trying to analyze everything and put a qualitative value to it. And that by doing so you are making a value judgement that;
1) most players of D&D do not care about
2) may indicate some desire to measure something that perhaps should not be measured quantitatively? (i.e. "fun")

Bawylie · Oct 13, 2018

LordEntrails said:
"assume", "assume", "suppose"
But what if the fireball only hits 1 target? Or it hits 20...

And if the adventure is in a dungeon with 10 foot ceilings and no chasms to cross, then fly is not worth 84 HP is it? But if the adventure is in a mountainous terrain where flight saves days of travel and avoids a dozen encounters, then it's worth more than 84HP isn't it?

My point wasn't about DPR, it was about trying to analyze everything and put a qualitative value to it. And that by doing so you are making a value judgement that;
1) most players of D&D do not care about
2) may indicate some desire to measure something that perhaps should not be measured quantitatively? (i.e. "fun")

Yeah, I suppose I assumed players would use their spells effectively and not cast fly underwater or fireball their own codpiece.

But let’s leave that complete waffle aside for a second.

I didn’t argue for or against assigning a point value - I merely illustrated it was possible to do so, if you were inclined.

So as to your points 1 and 2, I respectfully decline to debate positions I haven’t taken.

hawkeyefan · Oct 13, 2018

Take a look at auto ratings. Let’s say that DPR is the mileage rate of the car. Each car has a mileage rating. But it’s far from the only rating. They also have safety ratings and performance ratings and comfort ratings and so on.

A character is no different. Each has a certain DPR capability. But they also have defense and stealth and utility and charisma and so on.

Is mileage the most important factor when deciding to buy a car? For some people, sure. But not for everyone, clearly. It’s the same with DPR. If that’s the most important factor to a player or to the game the player’s in, then surr that’s what will matter most to them.

How exactly to compare DPR to other factors is tough. HP seems to be the metric to use, but they’re so hard to apply in many instances. How do you decide how many HP it’s worth to pick a lock or to get an NPC to open a gate? I mean, no one converts surviving an accident into a mile amount so they can compare the Saftey rating to the Mileage rating. It seems odd to even think of it that way. They are simply different aspects of the same thing.

Probably better to determine the specific categories in which a character can excel. DPR, Defense, Stealth, Social, and Utility. There are probably others....Support or Teamwork, maybe? Possibly others. Then you can use those categories to determine an overall rating for a character, and then you’ll have a common metric to use to compare characters.